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NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued
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Geertjan Wielenga
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:12 am    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

On 03/14/2012 12:46 AM, damaru wrote:
Quote:
Well, I did spend a lot of my contract work writing Swing by hand, so I know what that's about. It's not horrible, but I'd use a layout manager that's easier to code for than GridbagLayout, though I prefer the latter when using form editors due to its flexibility. Form editors save me a lot of time, and there is tons of work left to do on this particular app.

As far as moving to the NB platform goes, well, it seems even riskier than SAF because it was never even considered as a JSR. At least SAF has seen a new implementation, I suppose because there's a demand for it! But when the NB platform stops being developed, we'll all be in the same boat again!

Well, Oracle's JDeveloper IDE and Oracle's NetBeans IDE are both created
on top of the NetBeans Platform. As well as other Oracle products and
the products of many other organizations, including NATO and Boeing.

So, the day that the NetBeans Platform stops being developed is the day
that JDeveloper and NetBeans IDE stop being developed. When do you think
that will be?

Gj

Quote:
I will spend some time evaluating it anyway, at least to see if it's really as heavyweight as I suspect it may be.


Thomas Wolf wrote:
Quote:
I am curious as to why you're facing a rewrite. From what you describe, it's simply that the NB GUI editor is no longer supporting your SAF-based forms. If it's like other GUi-based "forms", you could simply remove the ".form" file and get rid of the "GEN" type comments from the generated Java file to get rid of that error message. Of course you'd have to hand-code any GUI changes from that point on, but that is pretty easy (provided you know Swing) once you have a screen all laid out and are just making minor tweaks (we did this to most of our screens: develop them using NB's GUI builder and, as they matured, replace the inefficient generated code with optimized hand-coding and removal of the ".form" files).

Best regards,
Tom


On Mar 12, 2012, at 11:38 AM, damaru wrote:


Quote:
I would just like to add my voice to the many who have been screwed by SAF support being discontinued.

Yes, I know that SAF itself isn't being developed, but the jars that were there worked fine for me and saved me a ton of time. NB 7.0 provided a wizard that made it quick and easy to get an app running. As long as the framework worked well enough, I had no concern that it wasn't getting enhanced.

I built a medium sized app on it, and just the other day tried to modify it in NB 7.1 when I was greeted by that awful 'can't open the form' message. Now I'm faced with a big rewrite - for no reason other than the NB team decided to yank out support.




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Gregg Wonderly
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:55 am    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

On 3/13/2012 7:54 PM, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
Quote:
On 03/14/2012 12:46 AM, damaru wrote:
Quote:
Well, I did spend a lot of my contract work writing Swing by hand, so I know
what that's about. It's not horrible, but I'd use a layout manager that's
easier to code for than GridbagLayout, though I prefer the latter when using
form editors due to its flexibility. Form editors save me a lot of time, and
there is tons of work left to do on this particular app.

As far as moving to the NB platform goes, well, it seems even riskier than SAF
because it was never even considered as a JSR. At least SAF has seen a new
implementation, I suppose because there's a demand for it! But when the NB
platform stops being developed, we'll all be in the same boat again!

Well, Oracle's JDeveloper IDE and Oracle's NetBeans IDE are both created on top
of the NetBeans Platform. As well as other Oracle products and the products of
many other organizations, including NATO and Boeing.

So, the day that the NetBeans Platform stops being developed is the day that
JDeveloper and NetBeans IDE stop being developed. When do you think that will be?

I really can appreciate this perspective, but there is nothing practical that
you can guarantee. Even netbeans itself has had API changes, features removed,
and all kinds of things done that have inconvenienced and frustrated developers.
Practically, there is no "foot" to stand on and wave a patriotic flag around.
We all appreciate netbeans, and that's why there are still users. I really
don't understand all the "it's not a big problem, get over it" responses.
Clearly the people coming here and complaining feel it's a big deal for them.

I don't think any of us have unlimited time to spend on everything we do.

Gregg Wonderly

Quote:
Quote:
I will spend some time evaluating it anyway, at least to see if it's really as
heavyweight as I suspect it may be.


Thomas Wolf wrote:
Quote:
I am curious as to why you're facing a rewrite. From what you describe, it's
simply that the NB GUI editor is no longer supporting your SAF-based forms.
If it's like other GUi-based "forms", you could simply remove the ".form"
file and get rid of the "GEN" type comments from the generated Java file to
get rid of that error message. Of course you'd have to hand-code any GUI
changes from that point on, but that is pretty easy (provided you know Swing)
once you have a screen all laid out and are just making minor tweaks (we did
this to most of our screens: develop them using NB's GUI builder and, as they
matured, replace the inefficient generated code with optimized hand-coding
and removal of the ".form" files).

Best regards,
Tom


On Mar 12, 2012, at 11:38 AM, damaru wrote:


Quote:
I would just like to add my voice to the many who have been screwed by SAF
support being discontinued.

Yes, I know that SAF itself isn't being developed, but the jars that were
there worked fine for me and saved me a ton of time. NB 7.0 provided a
wizard that made it quick and easy to get an app running. As long as the
framework worked well enough, I had no concern that it wasn't getting enhanced.

I built a medium sized app on it, and just the other day tried to modify it
in NB 7.1 when I was greeted by that awful 'can't open the form' message.
Now I'm faced with a big rewrite - for no reason other than the NB team
decided to yank out support.







Back to top
damaru



Joined: 12 Mar 2012
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:48 am    Post subject: Re: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
On 03/14/2012 12:46 AM, damaru wrote:
Quote:
Well, I did spend a lot of my contract work writing Swing by hand, so I know what that's about. It's not horrible, but I'd use a layout manager that's easier to code for than GridbagLayout, though I prefer the latter when using form editors due to its flexibility. Form editors save me a lot of time, and there is tons of work left to do on this particular app.

As far as moving to the NB platform goes, well, it seems even riskier than SAF because it was never even considered as a JSR. At least SAF has seen a new implementation, I suppose because there's a demand for it! But when the NB platform stops being developed, we'll all be in the same boat again!

Well, Oracle's JDeveloper IDE and Oracle's NetBeans IDE are both created
on top of the NetBeans Platform. As well as other Oracle products and
the products of many other organizations, including NATO and Boeing.

So, the day that the NetBeans Platform stops being developed is the day
that JDeveloper and NetBeans IDE stop being developed. When do you think
that will be?

Gj



Well, who knows? I was much more comfortable with NetBeans when the Sun still shone. Now that Oracle owns it, a lot of goodwill has been lost. Look at how Oracle has attacked Google over Android. Does that make me, as a Java developer, love Oracle more? I'm afraid not. When I hear Larry say "It's not enough that we win - everyone else must lose" then it feels like Java itself is owned by a psychopath. He might decide to sacrifice NetBeans and JDeveloper for some Java-like, more patent-enforceable clone. Who knows? Like, whatever happened to oc4j? One of my clients got screwed by Oracle killing that product.

Look here: http://zeroturnaround.com/java-ee-productivity-report-2011/

NetBeans and JDeveloper combined only have about 15% of the market anyway, so maybe it's a moot point.
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Geertjan Wielenga
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:40 am    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

On 03/14/2012 03:37 AM, Gregg Wonderly wrote:
Quote:
On 3/13/2012 7:54 PM, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
Quote:
On 03/14/2012 12:46 AM, damaru wrote:
Quote:
Well, I did spend a lot of my contract work writing Swing by hand,
so I know
what that's about. It's not horrible, but I'd use a layout manager
that's
easier to code for than GridbagLayout, though I prefer the latter
when using
form editors due to its flexibility. Form editors save me a lot of
time, and
there is tons of work left to do on this particular app.

As far as moving to the NB platform goes, well, it seems even
riskier than SAF
because it was never even considered as a JSR. At least SAF has seen
a new
implementation, I suppose because there's a demand for it! But when
the NB
platform stops being developed, we'll all be in the same boat again!

Well, Oracle's JDeveloper IDE and Oracle's NetBeans IDE are both
created on top
of the NetBeans Platform. As well as other Oracle products and the
products of
many other organizations, including NATO and Boeing.

So, the day that the NetBeans Platform stops being developed is the
day that
JDeveloper and NetBeans IDE stop being developed. When do you think
that will be?

I really can appreciate this perspective, but there is nothing
practical that you can guarantee. Even netbeans itself has had API
changes, features removed, and all kinds of things done that have
inconvenienced and frustrated developers. Practically, there is no
"foot" to stand on and wave a patriotic flag around.

Yes there is. The "foot" is called open source.

Gj


Quote:
We all appreciate netbeans, and that's why there are still users. I
really don't understand all the "it's not a big problem, get over it"
responses. Clearly the people coming here and complaining feel it's a
big deal for them.

I don't think any of us have unlimited time to spend on everything we do.

Gregg Wonderly

Quote:
Quote:
I will spend some time evaluating it anyway, at least to see if it's
really as
heavyweight as I suspect it may be.


Thomas Wolf wrote:
Quote:
I am curious as to why you're facing a rewrite. From what you
describe, it's
simply that the NB GUI editor is no longer supporting your
SAF-based forms.
If it's like other GUi-based "forms", you could simply remove the
".form"
file and get rid of the "GEN" type comments from the generated Java
file to
get rid of that error message. Of course you'd have to hand-code
any GUI
changes from that point on, but that is pretty easy (provided you
know Swing)
once you have a screen all laid out and are just making minor
tweaks (we did
this to most of our screens: develop them using NB's GUI builder
and, as they
matured, replace the inefficient generated code with optimized
hand-coding
and removal of the ".form" files).

Best regards,
Tom


On Mar 12, 2012, at 11:38 AM, damaru wrote:


Quote:
I would just like to add my voice to the many who have been
screwed by SAF
support being discontinued.

Yes, I know that SAF itself isn't being developed, but the jars
that were
there worked fine for me and saved me a ton of time. NB 7.0
provided a
wizard that made it quick and easy to get an app running. As long
as the
framework worked well enough, I had no concern that it wasn't
getting enhanced.

I built a medium sized app on it, and just the other day tried to
modify it
in NB 7.1 when I was greeted by that awful 'can't open the form'
message.
Now I'm faced with a big rewrite - for no reason other than the NB
team
decided to yank out support.








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Fabrizio Giudici
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:37 am    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

On Wed, 14 Mar 2012 08:22:29 +0100, Geertjan Wielenga
<address-removed> wrote:


Quote:
Quote:
I really can appreciate this perspective, but there is nothing
practical that you can guarantee. Even netbeans itself has had API
changes, features removed, and all kinds of things done that have
inconvenienced and frustrated developers. Practically, there is no
"foot" to stand on and wave a patriotic flag around.

Yes there is. The "foot" is called open source.

I'd like to add that things such as e.g. Spring have never been a JSR. Do
you guys feel somewhat worried about it? Being a JSR doesn't add or
subtract a lot from my evaluation of whether a certain library stays or
not.



--
Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager
Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere."
address-removed
http://tidalwave.it - http://fabriziogiudici.it
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Gregg Wonderly
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:53 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

On 3/14/2012 2:22 AM, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
Quote:
On 03/14/2012 03:37 AM, Gregg Wonderly wrote:
Quote:
On 3/13/2012 7:54 PM, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
Quote:
On 03/14/2012 12:46 AM, damaru wrote:
Quote:
Well, I did spend a lot of my contract work writing Swing by hand, so I know
what that's about. It's not horrible, but I'd use a layout manager that's
easier to code for than GridbagLayout, though I prefer the latter when using
form editors due to its flexibility. Form editors save me a lot of time, and
there is tons of work left to do on this particular app.

As far as moving to the NB platform goes, well, it seems even riskier than SAF
because it was never even considered as a JSR. At least SAF has seen a new
implementation, I suppose because there's a demand for it! But when the NB
platform stops being developed, we'll all be in the same boat again!

Well, Oracle's JDeveloper IDE and Oracle's NetBeans IDE are both created on top
of the NetBeans Platform. As well as other Oracle products and the products of
many other organizations, including NATO and Boeing.

So, the day that the NetBeans Platform stops being developed is the day that
JDeveloper and NetBeans IDE stop being developed. When do you think that will
be?

I really can appreciate this perspective, but there is nothing practical that
you can guarantee. Even netbeans itself has had API changes, features removed,
and all kinds of things done that have inconvenienced and frustrated
developers. Practically, there is no "foot" to stand on and wave a patriotic
flag around.

Yes there is. The "foot" is called open source.

Yes, netbeans is open source. But this issue, in particular, is about a feature
that was core to the IDE. The only way that open source could solve the problem
would be to fork netbeans at a previous version, go forward from that point. I
don't think that's productive overall. What the stir is about, is people
feeling like they are losing productivity, if not "investment" in their use of
the platform, because a feature which they did find valuable, just disappeared.

The "It's no longer a JSR" is a mute point. All of netbeans is "NOT a JSR".
What is actually at issue, from my perspective, still, is whether or not there
are multiple ways to construct software.

Currently, there are tons of "web developers" who would tell you that HTML 5 is
the only thing you need to build Apps. Others will tell you that they only need
Ruby on Rails to build apps. Still others will hold up their Pic microprocessor
and pronounce "small is good". In the end, it's really about perspective.

You firmly believe, and said so in this thread, that you don't understand why
there ever as an SAF and that the netbeans platform is much better suited for
application development. Many here, have stated that they just can't see the
necessity of all the overhead of the platform.

I write a lot of small applications which I package as simple .jar launched
applications. Just double click and go. They can be passed around via email,
easily, and you can put a bunch on a thumb drive to carry with you.

I firmly believe that .jar should be the standard way to package java
applications, and it should just work. I've wrapped JNI, and other resources
inside of .jar files and it all works great.

The netbeans platform is great if you want to have multiple things running at
the same time inside of a single container. I have such applications as well.
But, overall, I feel very unproductive working in the platform environment,
compared to working on a Swing app wrapped in a .jar. Part of that is my
overall experience, but also part of that is the complexity of the platform.

There are lots of things to consider when saying the platform is the best choice
for all apps, compared to SAF. Using Annotations and/or the .xml files, new
project properties, versioning, exposing APIs as public even though the class
says it's public so that it ends up in the right level of classloader heirarchy,
module visibility/interaction/packaging as a in-your-face requirement and many
other things which normal swing development doesn't usually involve in such a
"forced" way. There's a lot of documentation to read, and it's specific to
"netbeans", not to "Java the Platform". It paints you into a corner (as this
SAF issue has demontrated) so that you are not in control of what your time
investment has manifested.

This is not a unique situation. However, it is one of many, where things have
been yanked from netbeans for seemly arbitrary reasons. Typically this seems to
happen with things which aren't Modules, but rather "integrated features" which
are "in the way" of other development. Those are the tough things for "open
source" to "handle". Those kinds of changes are more like a "product feature"
change. The end result, is that you have to then chose a different product, or
change what you need from the product.

Personally, the more things I see disappear from the IDE platform, like SAF
support, and things that are removed from the platform, with no similar or
bridge API, the further I step back from using any features of the platform. I
don't have schedules measured in years, I work in week or month schedules on
application that then have year or even decade lifecycles. If you have
flexibility in completely replacing software, all the time, and lots of people
to bury this kind of "development overhead" into, then please, enjoy that
privilege, because not everyone has it.

Gregg Wonderly
Back to top
Geertjan Wielenga
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:55 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:
Yes there is. The "foot" is called open source.

Yes, netbeans is open source. But this issue, in particular, is about
a feature that was core to the IDE. The only way that open source
could solve the problem would be to fork netbeans at a previous
version, go forward from that point. I don't think that's productive
overall. What the stir is about, is people feeling like they are
losing productivity, if not "investment" in their use of the platform,
because a feature which they did find valuable, just disappeared.

The "It's no longer a JSR" is a mute point. All of netbeans is "NOT a
JSR".


Yes, but if anything was ever a JSR and later was no longer a JSR, then
there's no point in supporting it anymore because that progress means
the JSR is dead.

Gj

Quote:
What is actually at issue, from my perspective, still, is whether or
not there are multiple ways to construct software.

Currently, there are tons of "web developers" who would tell you that
HTML 5 is the only thing you need to build Apps. Others will tell you
that they only need Ruby on Rails to build apps. Still others will
hold up their Pic microprocessor and pronounce "small is good". In
the end, it's really about perspective.

You firmly believe, and said so in this thread, that you don't
understand why there ever as an SAF and that the netbeans platform is
much better suited for application development. Many here, have
stated that they just can't see the necessity of all the overhead of
the platform.

I write a lot of small applications which I package as simple .jar
launched applications. Just double click and go. They can be passed
around via email, easily, and you can put a bunch on a thumb drive to
carry with you.

I firmly believe that .jar should be the standard way to package java
applications, and it should just work. I've wrapped JNI, and other
resources inside of .jar files and it all works great.

The netbeans platform is great if you want to have multiple things
running at the same time inside of a single container. I have such
applications as well. But, overall, I feel very unproductive working
in the platform environment, compared to working on a Swing app
wrapped in a .jar. Part of that is my overall experience, but also
part of that is the complexity of the platform.

There are lots of things to consider when saying the platform is the
best choice for all apps, compared to SAF. Using Annotations and/or
the .xml files, new project properties, versioning, exposing APIs as
public even though the class says it's public so that it ends up in
the right level of classloader heirarchy, module
visibility/interaction/packaging as a in-your-face requirement and
many other things which normal swing development doesn't usually
involve in such a "forced" way. There's a lot of documentation to
read, and it's specific to "netbeans", not to "Java the Platform". It
paints you into a corner (as this SAF issue has demontrated) so that
you are not in control of what your time investment has manifested.

This is not a unique situation. However, it is one of many, where
things have been yanked from netbeans for seemly arbitrary reasons.
Typically this seems to happen with things which aren't Modules, but
rather "integrated features" which are "in the way" of other
development. Those are the tough things for "open source" to
"handle". Those kinds of changes are more like a "product feature"
change. The end result, is that you have to then chose a different
product, or change what you need from the product.

Personally, the more things I see disappear from the IDE platform,
like SAF support, and things that are removed from the platform, with
no similar or bridge API, the further I step back from using any
features of the platform. I don't have schedules measured in years, I
work in week or month schedules on application that then have year or
even decade lifecycles. If you have flexibility in completely
replacing software, all the time, and lots of people to bury this kind
of "development overhead" into, then please, enjoy that privilege,
because not everyone has it.

Gregg Wonderly
Back to top
Javier Ortiz
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:15 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

The real point is that since the JSR was rejected it won't be supported anymore. Sooner or later the migration to something else will need to happen. If you need that support for your reasons, you need to stick with NetBeans 7.0.7 (or whatever is the latest supporting it). If is for small changes/maintenance that should be completely acceptable. Legacy applications usually need legacy tools for maintenance if you want to avoid porting it to a new technology. If you need a new application then you should avoid SAF.

I mean SAF was dropped from JDK7. As soon as your customers need to upgrade jave to 1.7 or above for any reason you'll have to upgrade. Then why should the IDE still encourage users to go the SAF way if it's a dead end (for new development).

There are other alternatives than NetBeans: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swing_Application_Framework

I would understand the complaint if NetBeans dropped just because (valid reasons like staffing, etc) like it happened with UML module but it was not NetBeans decision, was Oracle's decision (or whover makes the call on Java).

You can ship NetBeans application via Java Web Start for example to cover your portability issue.

I've been trying to constraint myself to post on this thread but it just won't die...

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Gregg Wonderly
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:15 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

On 3/14/2012 12:37 PM, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
Quote:

Quote:
Quote:
Yes there is. The "foot" is called open source.

Yes, netbeans is open source. But this issue, in particular, is about a
feature that was core to the IDE. The only way that open source could solve
the problem would be to fork netbeans at a previous version, go forward from
that point. I don't think that's productive overall. What the stir is about,
is people feeling like they are losing productivity, if not "investment" in
their use of the platform, because a feature which they did find valuable,
just disappeared.

The "It's no longer a JSR" is a mute point. All of netbeans is "NOT a JSR".


Yes, but if anything was ever a JSR and later was no longer a JSR, then there's
no point in supporting it anymore because that progress means the JSR is dead.

I guess this could go on till we are blue in the face, because clearly Oracle
and the netbeans developers are going to assert "we did the right thing", forever.

Just because the JSR dies doesn't mean the technology is worthless. The people
complaining here are stating quite clearly that they found the technology
valuable. There are at least JSRs 76 and 78 that demonstrate technology not
being voted in, but Sun still designing and using the technology outside of the JDK.

We all get to vote in a democratic world. Some get to command, others have to
follow. What is not happening in the netbeans community, is "real voting".
Instead, there is only "The developers control the platform" and "the community
can develop modules".

When something isn't a module, there is only following possible, because the
community doesn't ever get to really vote on what happens in the core of
netbeans, except through bugs and subsequent complaining (incessant scanning) on
the list. Bugzilla votes, issue priorities and the like are no indicator of
what will be done.

Gregg Wonderly
Back to top
Geertjan Wielenga
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:19 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

On 03/14/2012 06:57 PM, Gregg Wonderly wrote:
Quote:
On 3/14/2012 12:37 PM, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
Quote:

Quote:
Quote:
Yes there is. The "foot" is called open source.

Yes, netbeans is open source. But this issue, in particular, is about a
feature that was core to the IDE. The only way that open source
could solve
the problem would be to fork netbeans at a previous version, go
forward from
that point. I don't think that's productive overall. What the stir
is about,
is people feeling like they are losing productivity, if not
"investment" in
their use of the platform, because a feature which they did find
valuable,
just disappeared.

The "It's no longer a JSR" is a mute point. All of netbeans is "NOT
a JSR".


Yes, but if anything was ever a JSR and later was no longer a JSR,
then there's
no point in supporting it anymore because that progress means the JSR
is dead.

I guess this could go on till we are blue in the face, because clearly
Oracle and the netbeans developers are going to assert "we did the
right thing", forever.

Just because the JSR dies doesn't mean the technology is worthless.

So what will happen when a bug is found in the Swing Application
Framework while NetBeans IDE provides tools for it? No one is going to
fix that bug. So NetBeans IDE will have tools for a broken framework.

Gj



Quote:
The people complaining here are stating quite clearly that they found
the technology valuable. There are at least JSRs 76 and 78 that
demonstrate technology not being voted in, but Sun still designing and
using the technology outside of the JDK.

We all get to vote in a democratic world. Some get to command, others
have to follow. What is not happening in the netbeans community, is
"real voting". Instead, there is only "The developers control the
platform" and "the community can develop modules".

When something isn't a module, there is only following possible,
because the community doesn't ever get to really vote on what happens
in the core of netbeans, except through bugs and subsequent
complaining (incessant scanning) on the list. Bugzilla votes, issue
priorities and the like are no indicator of what will be done.

Gregg Wonderly
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Gregg Wonderly
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:38 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

On 3/14/2012 1:01 PM, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
Quote:
On 03/14/2012 06:57 PM, Gregg Wonderly wrote:
Quote:
On 3/14/2012 12:37 PM, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
Quote:

Quote:
Quote:
Yes there is. The "foot" is called open source.

Yes, netbeans is open source. But this issue, in particular, is about a
feature that was core to the IDE. The only way that open source could solve
the problem would be to fork netbeans at a previous version, go forward from
that point. I don't think that's productive overall. What the stir is about,
is people feeling like they are losing productivity, if not "investment" in
their use of the platform, because a feature which they did find valuable,
just disappeared.

The "It's no longer a JSR" is a mute point. All of netbeans is "NOT a JSR".


Yes, but if anything was ever a JSR and later was no longer a JSR, then there's
no point in supporting it anymore because that progress means the JSR is dead.

I guess this could go on till we are blue in the face, because clearly Oracle
and the netbeans developers are going to assert "we did the right thing",
forever.

Just because the JSR dies doesn't mean the technology is worthless.

So what will happen when a bug is found in the Swing Application Framework while
NetBeans IDE provides tools for it? No one is going to fix that bug. So NetBeans
IDE will have tools for a broken framework.

Well, I guess that's the perspective that I was looking for. So you're saying
that even though SAF was put into the IDE by netbeans developers, that it
shouldn't of been there to start with because no one wants it, or wants to
support it?

Gregg Wonderly
Back to top
Geertjan Wielenga
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:42 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

On 03/14/2012 07:20 PM, Gregg Wonderly wrote:
Quote:
On 3/14/2012 1:01 PM, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
Quote:
On 03/14/2012 06:57 PM, Gregg Wonderly wrote:
Quote:
On 3/14/2012 12:37 PM, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
Quote:

Quote:
Quote:
Yes there is. The "foot" is called open source.

Yes, netbeans is open source. But this issue, in particular, is
about a
feature that was core to the IDE. The only way that open source
could solve
the problem would be to fork netbeans at a previous version, go
forward from
that point. I don't think that's productive overall. What the stir
is about,
is people feeling like they are losing productivity, if not
"investment" in
their use of the platform, because a feature which they did find
valuable,
just disappeared.

The "It's no longer a JSR" is a mute point. All of netbeans is
"NOT a JSR".


Yes, but if anything was ever a JSR and later was no longer a JSR,
then there's
no point in supporting it anymore because that progress means the
JSR is dead.

I guess this could go on till we are blue in the face, because
clearly Oracle
and the netbeans developers are going to assert "we did the right
thing",
forever.

Just because the JSR dies doesn't mean the technology is worthless.

So what will happen when a bug is found in the Swing Application
Framework while
NetBeans IDE provides tools for it? No one is going to fix that bug.
So NetBeans
IDE will have tools for a broken framework.

Well, I guess that's the perspective that I was looking for. So
you're saying that even though SAF was put into the IDE by netbeans
developers, that it shouldn't of been there to start with because no
one wants it, or wants to support it?

Nope. We'd have supported SAF forever and ever in the IDE... if it
hadn't stopped being a JSR.

Gj



Quote:

Gregg Wonderly
Back to top
Gregg Wonderly
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:51 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

On 3/14/2012 1:24 PM, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
Quote:
On 03/14/2012 07:20 PM, Gregg Wonderly wrote:
Quote:
On 3/14/2012 1:01 PM, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
Quote:
On 03/14/2012 06:57 PM, Gregg Wonderly wrote:
Quote:
On 3/14/2012 12:37 PM, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
Quote:

Quote:
Quote:
Yes there is. The "foot" is called open source.

Yes, netbeans is open source. But this issue, in particular, is about a
feature that was core to the IDE. The only way that open source could solve
the problem would be to fork netbeans at a previous version, go forward from
that point. I don't think that's productive overall. What the stir is about,
is people feeling like they are losing productivity, if not "investment" in
their use of the platform, because a feature which they did find valuable,
just disappeared.

The "It's no longer a JSR" is a mute point. All of netbeans is "NOT a JSR".


Yes, but if anything was ever a JSR and later was no longer a JSR, then
there's
no point in supporting it anymore because that progress means the JSR is dead.

I guess this could go on till we are blue in the face, because clearly Oracle
and the netbeans developers are going to assert "we did the right thing",
forever.

Just because the JSR dies doesn't mean the technology is worthless.

So what will happen when a bug is found in the Swing Application Framework while
NetBeans IDE provides tools for it? No one is going to fix that bug. So NetBeans
IDE will have tools for a broken framework.

Well, I guess that's the perspective that I was looking for. So you're saying
that even though SAF was put into the IDE by netbeans developers, that it
shouldn't of been there to start with because no one wants it, or wants to
support it?

Nope. We'd have supported SAF forever and ever in the IDE... if it hadn't
stopped being a JSR.

So if I understand what you saying, once any technology gets into the JSR
process, but is rejected, it will be removed from Netbeans, if it was ever
there? So, for example, the Lookup mechanism is a great feature of netbeans,
patterned after the long time Jini concepts of type based lookup. If I proposed
it as a JSR, and then it was rejected, would netbeans developers remove lookup
from netbeans because it was no longer a JSR?

Gregg Wonderly
Back to top
Geertjan Wielenga
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:05 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

On 03/14/2012 07:33 PM, Gregg Wonderly wrote:
Quote:
On 3/14/2012 1:24 PM, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
Quote:
On 03/14/2012 07:20 PM, Gregg Wonderly wrote:
Quote:
On 3/14/2012 1:01 PM, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
Quote:
On 03/14/2012 06:57 PM, Gregg Wonderly wrote:
Quote:
On 3/14/2012 12:37 PM, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
Quote:

Quote:
Quote:
Yes there is. The "foot" is called open source.

Yes, netbeans is open source. But this issue, in particular, is
about a
feature that was core to the IDE. The only way that open source
could solve
the problem would be to fork netbeans at a previous version, go
forward from
that point. I don't think that's productive overall. What the
stir is about,
is people feeling like they are losing productivity, if not
"investment" in
their use of the platform, because a feature which they did find
valuable,
just disappeared.

The "It's no longer a JSR" is a mute point. All of netbeans is
"NOT a JSR".


Yes, but if anything was ever a JSR and later was no longer a
JSR, then
there's
no point in supporting it anymore because that progress means the
JSR is dead.

I guess this could go on till we are blue in the face, because
clearly Oracle
and the netbeans developers are going to assert "we did the right
thing",
forever.

Just because the JSR dies doesn't mean the technology is worthless.

So what will happen when a bug is found in the Swing Application
Framework while
NetBeans IDE provides tools for it? No one is going to fix that
bug. So NetBeans
IDE will have tools for a broken framework.

Well, I guess that's the perspective that I was looking for. So
you're saying
that even though SAF was put into the IDE by netbeans developers,
that it
shouldn't of been there to start with because no one wants it, or
wants to
support it?

Nope. We'd have supported SAF forever and ever in the IDE... if it
hadn't
stopped being a JSR.

So if I understand what you saying, once any technology gets into the
JSR process, but is rejected, it will be removed from Netbeans, if it
was ever there? So, for example, the Lookup mechanism is a great
feature of netbeans, patterned after the long time Jini concepts of
type based lookup. If I proposed it as a JSR, and then it was
rejected, would netbeans developers remove lookup from netbeans
because it was no longer a JSR?


I think that's right, yes. But only if alternatives were to exist that
could be used instead of the Lookup mechanism.

Gj



Quote:

Gregg Wonderly
Back to top
Gregg Wonderly
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:14 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

On 3/14/2012 1:47 PM, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
Quote:
On 03/14/2012 07:33 PM, Gregg Wonderly wrote:
Quote:
On 3/14/2012 1:24 PM, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
Quote:
On 03/14/2012 07:20 PM, Gregg Wonderly wrote:
Quote:
On 3/14/2012 1:01 PM, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
Quote:
On 03/14/2012 06:57 PM, Gregg Wonderly wrote:
Quote:
On 3/14/2012 12:37 PM, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
Quote:

Quote:
Quote:
Yes there is. The "foot" is called open source.

Yes, netbeans is open source. But this issue, in particular, is about a
feature that was core to the IDE. The only way that open source could solve
the problem would be to fork netbeans at a previous version, go forward
from
that point. I don't think that's productive overall. What the stir is
about,
is people feeling like they are losing productivity, if not "investment" in
their use of the platform, because a feature which they did find valuable,
just disappeared.

The "It's no longer a JSR" is a mute point. All of netbeans is "NOT a JSR".


Yes, but if anything was ever a JSR and later was no longer a JSR, then
there's
no point in supporting it anymore because that progress means the JSR is
dead.

I guess this could go on till we are blue in the face, because clearly Oracle
and the netbeans developers are going to assert "we did the right thing",
forever.

Just because the JSR dies doesn't mean the technology is worthless.

So what will happen when a bug is found in the Swing Application Framework
while
NetBeans IDE provides tools for it? No one is going to fix that bug. So
NetBeans
IDE will have tools for a broken framework.

Well, I guess that's the perspective that I was looking for. So you're saying
that even though SAF was put into the IDE by netbeans developers, that it
shouldn't of been there to start with because no one wants it, or wants to
support it?

Nope. We'd have supported SAF forever and ever in the IDE... if it hadn't
stopped being a JSR.

So if I understand what you saying, once any technology gets into the JSR
process, but is rejected, it will be removed from Netbeans, if it was ever
there? So, for example, the Lookup mechanism is a great feature of netbeans,
patterned after the long time Jini concepts of type based lookup. If I
proposed it as a JSR, and then it was rejected, would netbeans developers
remove lookup from netbeans because it was no longer a JSR?


I think that's right, yes. But only if alternatives were to exist that could be
used instead of the Lookup mechanism.

I guess that doesn't make sense. There is so much embedded use of Lookup, all
over the planet in everybody's code, why would it seem like a good idea to
abandon it all together?

I guess I'm more conservative of time and energy waste...

Gregg Wonderly
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