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Glenn Holmer
Posted via mailing list.
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 Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:12 pm Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued |
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On Thu, 2012-03-15 at 16:44 +0100, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
| Quote: | Indeed, it would have
been nice to have a converter to convert code from SAF to NetBeans
Platform, but I still think you're expecting too much from tools. A
tutorial describing step by step what should be done to convert from one
technology to another is more meaningful than a tool that does
everything for you, because then you're locked into the tool -- which is
precisely the problem you're currently facing.
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Not to mention the fact that a converter is never going to get it
exactly right anyway...
--
____________________________________________________________
Glenn Holmer address-removed
Software Engineer phone: 414-908-1809
Weyco Group, Inc. fax: 414-908-1601 |
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Fabrizio Giudici
Posted via mailing list.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:22 pm Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued |
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On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:34:40 +0100, Bob Palank <address-removed> wrote:
| Quote: | If NetBeans and JDeveloper combined only have about 15% of the market,
which
vendors have the majority share? One WAG is Eclipse ?
Bob
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Just a method consideration: there are about 10.000.000 developers in the
world and that poll was based on about 1.300. It *is* possible to have a
valuable poll with this sample ratio, but only when samples are properly
picked and results are de-biased. Professional polling entities do this
all the year long. As far as I understand, the proper technique hasn't
been applied by guys at ZeroTurnaround. The fact that they consider
valuable their poll only demonstrates that in our profession we mostly
ignore the basic of statistics. This is true, of course, for any other
poll done in the same way.
--
Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager
Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere."
address-removed
http://tidalwave.it - http://fabriziogiudici.it |
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Fabrizio Giudici
Posted via mailing list.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:27 pm Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued |
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On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:47:26 +0100, Gregg Wonderly <address-removed>
wrote:
| Quote: | | Quote: | Clearly not. Consider that those 7MB could be even further trimmed down,
probably 2-3 MB less, but certainly not to 1MB. But allow me to ask:
what's
about it?  It shouldn't run on a mobile phone, where space is
limited, right?
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I guess you haven't looked at mobile phones lately? Java-ME was always
a horribly limited environment because it was designed around using a
small processor that just did phone details to compute some stuff as
well. Java-ME is history for consumer phone devices.
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Well, first I'm an Android developer so I know about device capabilities
and second I wasn't talking about JME. In any case, thanks for
strengthening my point, that pursuing to create an application that is
large just a few megabytes don't make any sense today.
| Quote: | | Quote: | It's partially true, that is if you don't like Maven. With Maven you are
completely IDE independent.
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I really don't think this is true, at all. Sure Maven can run build
steps for you, inside or outside of an IDE, but in the end, if you are
using a "platform" based on netbeans, it has to run with the netbeans
RCP runtime. Being dependent on that platform/runtime is the issue
here, not which IDE can build what.
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... and SAF applications depend on SAF runtime, right? What's the
difference? The only benefit would be size, but you just said that it's
not relevant today. The big pitfall is that SAF is not more maintained. So
are you saying that you prefer to depend on a smaller, unmaintained
runtime rather than on a larger, maintained runtime, still assuming that
size doesn't matter? Fun! :-)
--
Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager
Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere."
address-removed
http://tidalwave.it - http://fabriziogiudici.it |
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Fabrizio Giudici
Posted via mailing list.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:30 pm Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued |
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On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 16:12:33 +0100, Geertjan Wielenga
<address-removed> wrote:
| Quote: | | Quote: | If I was going to port an netbeans platform application to Eclipse, how
would I make those annotations do the right thing in Eclipse? Does
Eclipse support the same annotations with the same behavior?
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Annotations are exercising the annotation facility of the javac compiler,
so why shouldn't they work? They work pretty well even in IDE-less builds,
where there's nothing about NetBeans other than the runtime. For the
record, some annotations work even on Android ("some" because of course
only a minor subset of Platform features make sense on Android).
--
Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager
Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere."
address-removed
http://tidalwave.it - http://fabriziogiudici.it |
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Geertjan Wielenga
Posted via mailing list.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:45 pm Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued |
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On 03/15/2012 07:12 PM, Fabrizio Giudici wrote:
| Quote: | On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 16:12:33 +0100, Geertjan Wielenga
<address-removed> wrote:
| Quote: | | Quote: | If I was going to port an netbeans platform application to Eclipse,
how would I make those annotations do the right thing in Eclipse?
Does Eclipse support the same annotations with the same behavior?
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Annotations are exercising the annotation facility of the javac
compiler, so why shouldn't they work? They work pretty well even in
IDE-less builds, where there's nothing about NetBeans other than the
runtime. For the record, some annotations work even on Android ("some"
because of course only a minor subset of Platform features make sense
on Android).
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Yeah, you don't need NetBeans IDE at all. You only need Ant:
http://platform.netbeans.org/tutorials/nbm-ant.html
Or you only need Maven:
http://platform.netbeans.org/tutorials/nbm-maven-commandline.html
Gj |
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Gregg Wonderly
Posted via mailing list.
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:38 pm Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued |
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On 3/15/2012 1:12 PM, Fabrizio Giudici wrote:
| Quote: | On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 16:12:33 +0100, Geertjan Wielenga
<address-removed> wrote:
| Quote: | | Quote: | If I was going to port an netbeans platform application to Eclipse, how would
I make those annotations do the right thing in Eclipse? Does Eclipse support
the same annotations with the same behavior?
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Annotations are exercising the annotation facility of the javac compiler, so why
shouldn't they work? They work pretty well even in IDE-less builds, where
there's nothing about NetBeans other than the runtime. For the record, some
annotations work even on Android ("some" because of course only a minor subset
of Platform features make sense on Android).
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I talking specifically about them creating the same behavior on other platforms.
I am not talking about building a netbeans app outside of the netbeans IDE.
SAF is about one app development environment usable on any IDE. Netbeans
platform apps can be build with ant or maven, outside of the IDE. That's not
what SAF represents to its users.
Gregg Wonderly |
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Rob Ratcliff
Posted via mailing list.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:37 pm Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued |
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Also see the bug regarding this issue here:
http://netbeans.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=204661
Notice that it has 20 votes, which is actually pretty high for a bug.
The three concerns I have with discontinuing the framework are:
1.) NetBeans Platform applications don't seem to be embeddable very
easily as an applet or created from within a program like Matlab for
instance. Has anybody done this with an NetBeans Platform application?
(Not a JNLP application, but an applet.)
2.) Many have existing applications written with the SAF and need an
easy migration path. (I've used the NB platform recently for smaller
GUIs and it has worked out fine.)
3.) The user community was not polled before the decision was made
excise the GUI support for the SAF.out of the NetBeans GUI builder.
Thanks,
Rob
On 3/7/2012 8:49 PM, prasadrvln wrote:
| Quote: | Hi guys. Please I need help.
After posting my last message, I have done the following works.
- Converted all forms to the new 7.1 std. forms. With no SAF. One problem (not major) is that in one of the forms, I have two button groups, each having at least five radio buttons. In SAF, I was able to define one @Action and then assign that to all the radio buttons. In the new one, when I create an actionListener event, it creates a private method and the actionListener calls the private method. So I have five private methods – one for each of the radio buttons. Then I need to call a separate method from these five to get the work done. This I don’t think is a correct programming technique.
- Went through most of the tutorials sections – especially the selection management stuff. What appears to me is that I should get rid of all of my dialog boxes (that collect essential input from user) and change them into top components. I don’t want to do this if I can avoid it. Second problem, as I explained in my earlier mail, is that the input dialog boxes are interdependent. The first box collects length units. If the user enters say “meters”, then that input needs to go into the other input dialog boxes. This is just an example. I haven’t been able to figure out how to do this.
- I have a five input dialog boxes – each of which is collecting some type of information that is different to the info collected by the other boxes. The issue is if I use lookup framework, then I need to have different types of objects looked up by a viewer java file (instead of multiple objects of the same class). It makes it bulky and cumbersome.
- One of the input dialog boxes is a dynamic one. It’s there when I need it and as many times as I need it. Specifically, I need input on wave conditions. If the user enters the conditions, then I need to have (a) a capability to display that window again for input of another wave condition, (b) a menu item added to the main menu and (c) assign an action to that newly created main menu. Don’t know how to implement that functionality into NBP Application.
Please help me. In case you need any of the structure files or others, I will be happy to provide.
Geertjan. Specific questions to you.
1. I tried to follow your porting basic html file. It’s got so many errors in it. If you strictly follow what is instructed, you won’t get anywhere. Please consider re-writing it.
2. I have spent at least 70 hours on trying to port to NetBeans and going through a lot of documentation regarding this on the net. I am sure there are a lot of people like me. Isn’t this a lot of waste of collective time?
3. OK. JSR-296 was dead. Java wouldn’t care to develop it and include in their SDK. I understand that much. But if the decision of NetBeans is to drop support for that, I think it was better to deprecate it first for about one or two NB releases, and then drop support altogether. That’s how Java does it (AFAIK). The earlier version of NB only said that the JSR was no longer being developed, but never said that NB was going to drop support for SAF.
4. SAF is dead. But BSAF is being developed. And it’s not a huge software. I really fail to understand why NB cannot support it or do a similar one. I know it’s free software and everything costs money. But what I am asking is, the support for SAF was already there. We are not asking you do develop something new for us. But only not remove what’s already there.
5. With due respect to you, I don’t think you have ever developed a small scale application using SAF. It works very well for smaller applications, which I believe most people are trying to develop. If you did, you would know why people are crying out for this support.
6. I have read many posts on the forums. I think one poster (don’t remember his name) said something similar to (if I understand correctly) “people who don’t contribute are the ones who cry the most”. I don’t want to be rude here, but is it necessary to contribute first before asking for something? Is faithfully sticking to NetBeans for over 8 years (that’s me) not a way of contributing? If many people move away, then what use is NetBeans?
7. If I use NBP Application with basic features (i.e., without the default NB window), and then stick my code into a method in the moduleinstall class, then what benefit am I going to get? Why can’t I just make the main class of my app to show itself up?
8. I think NBP Application is like the old time Linux (pre 1995). Only the developer could use it. Lesser mortals like me just couldn’t. Things improved after 1996/7. NBP Applications are like that. Only people like Geertjan can use it effectively. Not surely me. As I said in my previous mail, I am only a civil engineer with an interest in programming. I develop programs to do my office work, to do engineering calculations. All my colleagues use my programs as well. I give my programs to the others too. I keep adding features to my programs but I don’t sell them. I don’t code everday. All I need (for most programs I develop) is a mechanism where users can put in input, then let the program process it and give an output. I don’t need persistence, concurrency, stupidity or all that advanced magical stuff. I am sure there are many people like me. SAF worked for us.
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diek
Joined: 20 Jan 2012
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:36 am Post subject: Confusion and Chaos |
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This concept of what is happening with Swing is unbelievable. Obviously there is no clear concensus as to what is happening. I updated to the lastest version of Netbeans, and then downloaded some GUI examples. There it was in black and white: | Code: | | public class ContactEditor extends javax.swing.JFrame |
from the ContactEditor example.
So how to confuse a student of Java, tell him that swing is no longer supported, then give gui examples using swing. One person wrote that swing is still being taught in schools and he is correct. To add to the this student's confusion, remove a major concept and then fail to give a clear alternative. The Netbeans response is to move to the Netbeans platform, what exactly does that mean? If they want me or anyone to understand they need to give us simply direction with clear example. Please do not mistake my confusion for anything other than that, I just want to understand but at this point I am lost. While I understand the that the professional programmers are in a more serious situation, I too am in a situation, I need to submit a GUI program or risk a poor mark/fail. |
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Mack06
Joined: 04 Mar 2011
Posts: 514
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:41 am Post subject: Re: Confusion and Chaos |
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Swing GUIs are still supported. This thread is about the SAF, which is not the same as Swing GUIs or the Netbeans GUI Builder.
| diek wrote: | This concept of what is happening with Swing is unbelievable. Obviously there is no clear concensus as to what is happening. I updated to the lastest version of Netbeans, and then downloaded some GUI examples. There it was in black and white: | Code: | | public class ContactEditor extends javax.swing.JFrame |
from the ContactEditor example.
So how to confuse a student of Java, tell him that swing is no longer supported, then give gui examples using swing. One person wrote that swing is still being taught in schools and he is correct. To add to the this student's confusion, remove a major concept and then fail to give a clear alternative. The Netbeans response is to move to the Netbeans platform, what exactly does that mean? If they want me or anyone to understand they need to give us simply direction with clear example. Please do not mistake my confusion for anything other than that, I just want to understand but at this point I am lost. While I understand the that the professional programmers are in a more serious situation, I too am in a situation, I need to submit a GUI program or risk a poor mark/fail. |
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Geertjan Wielenga
Posted via mailing list.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:59 am Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued |
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http://wiki.netbeans.org/SAFSupport
Gj
On 03/18/2012 08:41 AM, Mack06 wrote:
| Quote: | Swing GUIs are still supported. This thread is about the SAF, which is not the same as Swing GUIs or the Netbeans GUI Builder.
diek wrote:
| Quote: | This concept of what is happening with Swing is unbelievable. Obviously there is no clear concensus as to what is happening. I updated to the lastest version of Netbeans, and then downloaded some GUI examples. There it was in black and white:
Code:
public class ContactEditor extends javax.swing.JFrame
from the ContactEditor example.
So how to confuse a student of Java, tell him that swing is no longer supported, then give gui examples using swing. One person wrote that swing is still being taught in schools and he is correct. To add to the this student's confusion, remove a major concept and then fail to give a clear alternative. The Netbeans response is to move to the Netbeans platform, what exactly does that mean? If they want me or anyone to understand they need to give us simply direction with clear example. Please do not mistake my confusion for anything other than that, I just want to understand but at this point I am lost. While I understand the that the professional programmers are in a more serious situation, I too am in a situation, I need to submit a GUI program or risk a poor mark/fail.
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diek
Joined: 20 Jan 2012
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:43 pm Post subject: Ahhh My Newbie Ignorance Shining Through |
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| So my apologies. I guess I remain confused. If Swing is still supported why would Netbeans tell me they are not supported. When you use the term Swing for apparently more than one concept is another way to confuse us newbies. A topic for another forum. I will stop clogging up the forum. |
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diek
Joined: 20 Jan 2012
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:50 pm Post subject: Read the Link |
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Ok now you have me even more confused than I was before. From the link:
"What happens when I attempt to open a GUI form that uses Swing Application Framework in NetBeans 7.1?
The GUI Builder will refuse to open the form and will explain that the support of Swing Application Framework was discontinued. It will also suggest to use NetBeans IDE 7.0.1 to edit such forms.
A solution for converting existing forms to "plain Swing" is described in Bug 204661."
This is exactly the problem I am having. So if you are patient enough to explain. How is what I said different, from the above? And please do not read any tone into the question. Thank you. |
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Matthias Bl
Posted via mailing list.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:08 pm Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued |
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Hey,
Am Sonntag, den 18.03.2012, 02:36 +0000 schrieb diek:
| Quote: | So how to confuse a student of Java, tell him that swing is no longer
supported, then give gui examples using swing. One person wrote that
swing is still being taught in schools and he is correct.
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my advice to anyone still being confused: READ THE F*** FAQ Geertjan
provided:
http://wiki.netbeans.org/SAFSupport
To make it easier:
Swing is part of the JDK and thus supported for the forseeable future.
The Swing Application Framework is dead (ATTENTION TO THE "Application
Framework" part please!) - the JSR was withdrawn and no development
community took the source.
So PLEASE STOP SPREADING FUD! It gets annoying.
Greetings
Matthias |
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rcasha
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 35
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:11 pm Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued |
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"Swing" is not the same as " Swing Application Framework". Swing is an integral part of Java and will remain supported for the foreseeable future. Swing Application Framework, or SAF, was an application framework based on Swing which, for a time, was expected to become a standard part of Java. The Netbeans form designer supported it natively and for a time its use was encouraged. Then it was dropped from becoming a standard part of Java, it was no longer a JSR, and the Netbeans team removed the support for it from the designer. Unfortunately it is not easy to convert existing forms from SAF to plain Swing, which means anyone with systems developed using SAF will never be able to move beyond Netbeans 7.0 unless they want to rewrite substantial parts of their applications.
Ramon Casha
On 18 March 2012 16:50, diek <address-removed ([email]address-removed[/email])> wrote:
| Quote: | Ok now you have me even more confused than I was before. From the link:
"What happens when I attempt to open a GUI form that uses Swing Application Framework in NetBeans 7.1?
The GUI Builder will refuse to open the form and will explain that the support of Swing Application Framework was discontinued. It will also suggest to use NetBeans IDE 7.0.1 to edit such forms.
A solution for converting existing forms to "plain Swing" is described in Bug 204661."
This is exactly the problem I am having. So if you are patient enough to explain. How is what I said different, from the above? And please do not read any tone into the question. Thank you.
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javydreamercsw
Joined: 22 Jun 2009
Posts: 456
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:29 pm Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued |
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| Why isn't the XSLT transformation good enough? It was given in that post. If it works just bundle it as a bundle, load it to the Plug-in system and voila! |
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