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NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued
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Javier Ortiz
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:52 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

I agree. If you are still getting income from old applications, meaning you still have users out there, you'll need to migrate anytime soon when/if they request new features, etc. There are two ways for that:
1) Immediate: go ahead and change the code now
2) Delayed: Stick with the IDE version that supports your project and slowly start migrating code until you are ready to switch to the new way of doing things.

I have a DMS (document management system) I have customers for and I took route #1 and was done in a couple of months (not due to the SAF issue but I took care of that as well).

If you have no customers or no time just stick with number 2 and do it at your pace.

Senior Software Quality Engineer
ArthroCare Corporation
7000 William Cannon Drive
Austin, TX 78735
Phone: 512-358-5996
email: address-removed


-----Original Message-----
From: Xavier Callejas [mailto:address-removed]
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2012 10:15 AM
To: address-removed; Ramon Casha
Cc: usagi
Subject: [nbusers] Re: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued


But SAF is deprecated.

JavaFX 1.0 is deprecated too.

JavaFX 2.0 is not deprecated and there is support in current NB IDE.

Come on guys get over it and go forward, evolve into new tech.


--
Xavier Callejas
Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device.

-----Original Message-----
From: "Fabrizio Giudici" <address-removed>
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 11:48:37
To: Ramon Casha<address-removed>; <address-removed>
Reply-To: address-removed
Cc: usagi<address-removed>
Subject: [nbusers] Re: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued

On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 11:35:05 +0200, Ramon Casha <address-removed> wrote:

Quote:
No I meant that as an actual question. Since I've never developed a NB
plugin I'd have to first do a lot of learning before I can create a
plugin.
Someone who has done it before would find it easier to set up things.

A few months ago I took the JavaFX Script 1.0 NetBeans support
(discontinued) and prepared for an independent build, for Visage people. I never looked at the code and didn't need anything special, as it basically compiled as it were, it just needed some adjustment for using the Visage runtime instead of JavaFX 1.0. I suppose that the SAF module support is easier to handle, so I think that if three of you try to manage it, it's perfectly doable.

--
Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere."
address-removed
http://tidalwave.it - http://fabriziogiudici.it
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Xavier Callejas
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:05 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

NB should not support technology that is deprecated. If you or NB dev team found a bug in SAF, who will give you/them support? IMO it is a good marketing decision for NB IDE.I have old SAF apps. Still Running in production, but I know this framework is now deprecated, bad luck for me, maybe I should migrate them to NBP.--Xavier CallejasSent from my BlackBerry® wireless device.
From: Ramon Casha <address-removed>
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 15:56:13 +0200
To: <address-removed>
ReplyTo: address-removed
Subject: [nbusers] Re: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued

It has nothing to do with "removing a framework". It has everything to do with FIRST encouraging developers to use a framework, then removing code that was working perfectly in such a way that all the forms developed - many hundreds of forms - can't even be OPENED using the designer. Those claims of trustworthiness are neither wild nor ridiculous.

Ramon Casha


On 11 April 2012 15:34, Mack06 <address-removed ([email]address-removed[/email])> wrote:
Quote:
It might be disappointing that they removed a framework that was dead and never was standardized in the first place... but making wild, ridiculous claims of trustworthiness to villainize NetBeans people is uncalled for!




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rcasha



Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:11 am    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

Mark,

Please switch on your brain before posting. Thanks.
Ramon Casha


On 11 April 2012 16:23, Mark Wilmoth <address-removed ([email]address-removed[/email])> wrote:
Quote:
I go to the grocery store and they give out free samples of cookies every day. I love going there and getting my free cookie. I never buy anything, I just want a free cookie. I am quite addicted to my free cookie! One day I go in and they are not giving out free cookies any longer. As a matter of fact they have discontinued the program to give free cookie samples!

How could they do such a thing! They encouraged me to like the cookies and then pulled the rug out from under me!

They are untrustworthy and I will never go to that store again!

Mark

From: Ramon Casha <address-removed ([email]address-removed[/email])>
To: address-removed ([email]address-removed[/email])
Sent: Wed, April 11, 2012 8:56:13 AM
Subject: [nbusers] Re: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued

It has nothing to do with "removing a framework". It has everything to do with FIRST encouraging developers to use a framework, then removing code that was working perfectly in such a way that all the forms developed - many hundreds of forms - can't even be OPENED using the designer. Those claims of trustworthiness are neither wild nor ridiculous.

Ramon Casha


On 11 April 2012 15:34, Mack06 <address-removed ([email]address-removed[/email])> wrote:
Quote:
It might be disappointing that they removed a framework that was dead and never was standardized in the first place... but making wild, ridiculous claims of trustworthiness to villainize NetBeans people is uncalled for!












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rcasha



Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:12 am    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

Xavier,

By "migrate them to NBP" I suppose you mean "rewrite them for NBP", right?
Ramon Casha


On 11 April 2012 17:44, Xavier Callejas <address-removed ([email]address-removed[/email])> wrote:
Quote:

NB should not support technology that is deprecated.

If you or NB dev team found a bug in SAF, who will give you/them support?

IMO it is a good marketing decision for NB IDE.

I have old SAF apps. Still Running in production, but I know this framework is now deprecated, bad luck for me, maybe I should migrate them to NBP.

--
Xavier Callejas
Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device.
From: Ramon Casha <address-removed ([email]address-removed[/email])>

Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 15:56:13 +0200
To: <address-removed ([email]address-removed[/email])>
ReplyTo: address-removed ([email]address-removed[/email])
Subject: [nbusers] Re: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued



It has nothing to do with "removing a framework". It has everything to do with FIRST encouraging developers to use a framework, then removing code that was working perfectly in such a way that all the forms developed - many hundreds of forms - can't even be OPENED using the designer. Those claims of trustworthiness are neither wild nor ridiculous.

Ramon Casha


On 11 April 2012 15:34, Mack06 <address-removed ([email]address-removed[/email])> wrote:
Quote:
It might be disappointing that they removed a framework that was dead and never was standardized in the first place... but making wild, ridiculous claims of trustworthiness to villainize NetBeans people is uncalled for!









Back to top
Mack06



Joined: 04 Mar 2011
Posts: 873
Location: On Earth, in the corner of my bedroom.

PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:08 am    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

Ramon, insulting people over your free cookie that you are missing is no way to go through life.

No thanks.

Mark



From: Ramon Casha <address-removed>
To: address-removed
Sent: Wed, April 11, 2012 10:49:16 PM
Subject: [nbusers] Re: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued

Mark,

Please switch on your brain before posting. Thanks.
Ramon Casha


On 11 April 2012 16:23, Mark Wilmoth <address-removed ([email]address-removed[/email])> wrote:
Quote:
I go to the grocery store and they give out free samples of cookies every day. I love going there and getting my free cookie. I never buy anything, I just want a free cookie. I am quite addicted to my free cookie! One day I go in and they are not giving out free cookies any longer. As a matter of fact they have discontinued the program to give free cookie samples!

How could they do such a thing! They encouraged me to like the cookies and then pulled the rug out from under me!

They are untrustworthy and I will never go to that store again!

Mark

From: Ramon Casha <address-removed ([email]address-removed[/email])>
To: address-removed ([email]address-removed[/email])
Sent: Wed, April 11, 2012 8:56:13 AM
Subject: [nbusers] Re: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued

It has nothing to do with "removing a framework". It has everything to do with FIRST encouraging developers to use a framework, then removing code that was working perfectly in such a way that all the forms developed - many hundreds of forms - can't even be OPENED using the designer. Those claims of trustworthiness are neither wild nor ridiculous.

Ramon Casha


On 11 April 2012 15:34, Mack06 <address-removed ([email]address-removed[/email])> wrote:
Quote:
It might be disappointing that they removed a framework that was dead and never was standardized in the first place... but making wild, ridiculous claims of trustworthiness to villainize NetBeans people is uncalled for!












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Glenn Holmer
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:44 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

On Wed, 2012-04-11 at 21:46 -0700, Mark Wilmoth wrote:
Quote:
Ramon, insulting people over your free cookie that you are missing is
no way to go through life.

No thanks.

I love a good story and everything, but couldn't we all just agree that
this thread has run its course and get back to talking about how to use
NetBeans? You know, my manager has a favorite saying: "It is what it
is." I don't think there's any doubt that the developers are now well
aware that some people don't like it when tools for deprecated
technologies are removed without what they see as enough warning. And
that was the point of the thread, right? OK, mission accomplished. They
may change things, they may not... but it is what it is. Please, let's
move on.

--
____________________________________________________________
Glenn Holmer address-removed
Software Engineer phone: 414-908-1809
Weyco Group, Inc. fax: 414-908-1601
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Gregg Wonderly
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:21 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

On 4/11/2012 10:50 PM, Ramon Casha wrote:
Quote:
Xavier,

By "migrate them to NBP" I suppose you mean "rewrite them for NBP", right?

Ramon Casha


On 11 April 2012 17:44, Xavier Callejas <address-removed
<mailto:address-removed>> wrote:

__

NB should not support technology that is deprecated.

The JSR was shutdown, that doesn't deprecate the technology. That merely
removes it from a "path" to becoming part of the JDK. There are countless
technologies written for the JVM which are not "in the JDK".

Using the "its no longer a JSR" perhaps helps them to feel that their decision
is "valid". The ruckus it has caused here, and the emotions that people are
showing, I feel, clearly identifies that it's not such a "simple" decision point.

Gregg Wonderly
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Moshe Matitya
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:21 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

In previous versions of NB (6.9 and earlier), when the user would use the Create Project wizard to create a project of the type innocently named "Desktop Application" (no mention whatsoever of SAF, mind you) -- it would create an SAF app.

If the NB developers actually regard the countless apps created by their wizard the way you describe – as nothing more than free cookie samples in a grocery store – then that is the best reason I have ever heard to run from NB like the plague, and switch to a platform like Eclipse, whose developers do not regard their users with the contempt that you so colorfully describe.

Moshe



From: Mark Wilmoth [mailto:address-removed]
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2012 5:24 PM
To: address-removed
Subject: [nbusers] Re: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued


I go to the grocery store and they give out free samples of cookies every day. I love going there and getting my free cookie. I never buy anything, I just want a free cookie. I am quite addicted to my free cookie! One day I go in and they are not giving out free cookies any longer. As a matter of fact they have discontinued the program to give free cookie samples!

How could they do such a thing! They encouraged me to like the cookies and then pulled the rug out from under me!

They are untrustworthy and I will never go to that store again!

Mark

From: Ramon Casha <address-removed>
To: address-removed
Sent: Wed, April 11, 2012 8:56:13 AM
Subject: [nbusers] Re: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued

It has nothing to do with "removing a framework". It has everything to do with FIRST encouraging developers to use a framework, then removing code that was working perfectly in such a way that all the forms developed - many hundreds of forms - can't even be OPENED using the designer. Those claims of trustworthiness are neither wild nor ridiculous.

Ramon Casha


On 11 April 2012 15:34, Mack06 <address-removed ([email]address-removed[/email])> wrote:
It might be disappointing that they removed a framework that was dead and never was standardized in the first place... but making wild, ridiculous claims of trustworthiness to villainize NetBeans people is uncalled for!
Back to top
Moshe Matitya
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:30 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

THANK YOU for making that point, Gregg.

The fact that a library is not part of the JDK does NOT mean that the library is "deprecated". Not by a long shot. If it did mean that, then every single Java library in the world that is not part of the JDK (i.e., 99.999% of all Java libraries in existence) would have to be categorized as "deprecated".

The people on this thread who keep perpetuating the canard that SAF is "deprecated" are spreading FUD, pure and simple.

Which is kind of ironic, coming as it does from the same people who are accusing others with FUD...

Moshe


-----Original Message-----
From: Gregg Wonderly [mailto:address-removed]
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2012 5:00 PM
To: address-removed
Cc: Ramon Casha; address-removed
Subject: [nbusers] Re: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued

On 4/11/2012 10:50 PM, Ramon Casha wrote:
Quote:
Xavier,

By "migrate them to NBP" I suppose you mean "rewrite them for NBP", right?

Ramon Casha


On 11 April 2012 17:44, Xavier Callejas <address-removed
<mailto:address-removed>> wrote:

__

NB should not support technology that is deprecated.

The JSR was shutdown, that doesn't deprecate the technology. That merely
removes it from a "path" to becoming part of the JDK. There are countless
technologies written for the JVM which are not "in the JDK".

Using the "its no longer a JSR" perhaps helps them to feel that their decision
is "valid". The ruckus it has caused here, and the emotions that people are
showing, I feel, clearly identifies that it's not such a "simple" decision point.

Gregg Wonderly
Back to top
Milos Kleint
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:44 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

well, you might want to edit the wikipedia entry which clearly says
the project was "discontinued" ergo noone is working on it.. that's a
bit more that just "not part of JDK"..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swing_Application_Framework

Milos

On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 2:08 PM, Moshe Matitya
<address-removed> wrote:
Quote:
THANK YOU for making that point, Gregg.

The fact that a library is not part of the JDK does NOT mean that the library is "deprecated".  Not by a long shot.  If it did mean that, then every single Java library in the world that is not part of the JDK (i.e., 99.999% of all Java libraries in existence) would have to be categorized as "deprecated".

The people on this thread who keep perpetuating the canard that SAF is "deprecated" are spreading FUD, pure and simple.

Which is kind of ironic, coming as it does from the same people who are accusing others with FUD...

Moshe


-----Original Message-----
From: Gregg Wonderly [mailto:address-removed]
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2012 5:00 PM
To: address-removed
Cc: Ramon Casha; address-removed
Subject: [nbusers] Re: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued

On 4/11/2012 10:50 PM, Ramon Casha wrote:
Quote:
Xavier,

By "migrate them to NBP" I suppose you mean "rewrite them for NBP", right?

Ramon Casha


On 11 April 2012 17:44, Xavier Callejas <address-removed
<mailto:address-removed>> wrote:

    __

    NB should not support technology that is deprecated.

The JSR was shutdown, that doesn't deprecate the technology.  That merely
removes it from a "path" to becoming part of the JDK.  There are countless
technologies written for the JVM which are not "in the JDK".

Using the "its no longer a JSR" perhaps helps them to feel that their decision
is "valid".  The ruckus it has caused here, and the emotions that people are
showing, I feel, clearly identifies that it's not such a "simple" decision point.

Gregg Wonderly
Back to top
Mack06



Joined: 04 Mar 2011
Posts: 873
Location: On Earth, in the corner of my bedroom.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:14 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/contempt

NetBeans developers willfully despise other developers that use NetBeans?

This is a new all time low Moshe, congratulations!

Mark

From: Moshe Matitya <address-removed>
To: "address-removed" <address-removed>
Sent: Wed, April 18, 2012 6:59:59 AM
Subject: [nbusers] Re: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued


In previous versions of NB (6.9 and earlier), when the user would use the Create Project wizard to create a project of the type innocently named "Desktop Application" (no mention whatsoever of SAF, mind you) -- it would create an SAF app.

If the NB developers actually regard the countless apps created by their wizard the way you describe – as nothing more than free cookie samples in a grocery store – then that is the best reason I have ever heard to run from NB like the plague, and switch to a platform like Eclipse, whose developers do not regard their users with the contempt that you so colorfully describe.

Moshe



From: Mark Wilmoth [mailto:address-removed]
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2012 5:24 PM
To: address-removed
Subject: [nbusers] Re: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued


I go to the grocery store and they give out free samples of cookies every day. I love going there and getting my free cookie. I never buy anything, I just want a free cookie. I am quite addicted to my free cookie! One day I go in and they are not giving out free cookies any longer. As a matter of fact they have discontinued the program to give free cookie samples!

How could they do such a thing! They encouraged me to like the cookies and then pulled the rug out from under me!

They are untrustworthy and I will never go to that store again!

Mark

From: Ramon Casha <address-removed>
To: address-removed
Sent: Wed, April 11, 2012 8:56:13 AM
Subject: [nbusers] Re: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued

It has nothing to do with "removing a framework". It has everything to do with FIRST encouraging developers to use a framework, then removing code that was working perfectly in such a way that all the forms developed - many hundreds of forms - can't even be OPENED using the designer. Those claims of trustworthiness are neither wild nor ridiculous.

Ramon Casha


On 11 April 2012 15:34, Mack06 <address-removed ([email]address-removed[/email])> wrote:
It might be disappointing that they removed a framework that was dead and never was standardized in the first place... but making wild, ridiculous claims of trustworthiness to villainize NetBeans people is uncalled for!
Back to top
Xavier Callejas
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:26 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

+1

--
Xavier Callejas
Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device.

-----Original Message-----
From: Milos Kleint <address-removed>
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 14:22:14
To: <address-removed>
Reply-To: address-removed
Subject: [nbusers] Re: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued

well, you might want to edit the wikipedia entry which clearly says
the project was "discontinued" ergo noone is working on it.. that's a
bit more that just "not part of JDK"..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swing_Application_Framework

Milos

On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 2:08 PM, Moshe Matitya
<address-removed> wrote:
Quote:
THANK YOU for making that point, Gregg.

The fact that a library is not part of the JDK does NOT mean that the library is "deprecated".  Not by a long shot.  If it did mean that, then every single Java library in the world that is not part of the JDK (i.e., 99.999% of all Java libraries in existence) would have to be categorized as "deprecated".

The people on this thread who keep perpetuating the canard that SAF is "deprecated" are spreading FUD, pure and simple.

Which is kind of ironic, coming as it does from the same people who are accusing others with FUD...

Moshe


-----Original Message-----
From: Gregg Wonderly [mailto:address-removed]
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2012 5:00 PM
To: address-removed
Cc: Ramon Casha; address-removed
Subject: [nbusers] Re: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued

On 4/11/2012 10:50 PM, Ramon Casha wrote:
Quote:
Xavier,

By "migrate them to NBP" I suppose you mean "rewrite them for NBP", right?

Ramon Casha


On 11 April 2012 17:44, Xavier Callejas <address-removed
<mailto:address-removed>> wrote:

    __

    NB should not support technology that is deprecated.

The JSR was shutdown, that doesn't deprecate the technology.  That merely
removes it from a "path" to becoming part of the JDK.  There are countless
technologies written for the JVM which are not "in the JDK".

Using the "its no longer a JSR" perhaps helps them to feel that their decision
is "valid".  The ruckus it has caused here, and the emotions that people are
showing, I feel, clearly identifies that it's not such a "simple" decision point.

Gregg Wonderly
Back to top
Fabrizio Giudici
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:22 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

On Wed, 18 Apr 2012 16:03:34 +0200, Xavier Callejas
<address-removed> wrote:

Quote:

+1

Exactly. Doesn't "NO MORE DEVELOPED" scream much louder than "deprecated"?


--
Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager
Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere."
address-removed
http://tidalwave.it - http://fabriziogiudici.it
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Gregg Wonderly
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:58 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

On 4/18/2012 11:53 AM, Fabrizio Giudici wrote:
Quote:
On Wed, 18 Apr 2012 16:03:34 +0200, Xavier Callejas
<address-removed> wrote:

Quote:

+1

Exactly. Doesn't "NO MORE DEVELOPED" scream much louder than "deprecated"?

I seems to me, that what bothers most people with this issue, is that no one is
making comments that really are meaningful in regard to the true nature of
continued support of SAF. Even justification comments like the above that say
"NO MORE DEVELOPED", are hollow in the fact that java.lang.Object,
java.awt.event.Event, java.lang.Integer and many other classes are "NO MORE
DEVELOPED" in that they are mature technologies that do something that is
useful, and so people use them, and changing them is not necessary because they
work to accomplish a realistic goal.

There are lots of other ways to say SAF already was working well enough that it
perhaps didn't need anyone doing "more" to it. People took copies of it, and
put up their own web sites and "forges" to try and continue "development", but
people were happy with the way it worked, or made their own copies if they
needed extended functionality. The core of SAF, was solving a problem that many
people had with just wanting an application framework that would fill the void
between nothing, and something that would "run", as a starting point.

Netbeans RCP solves many more "problems" than SAF does, but so many people don't
have the problem set that Netbeans targets, and just need "a window" and that's
all. The convenience of other parts of SAF, they might eventually find and
depend on as well.

But still the basic issue, is that their forms no longer open in netbeans. Yes,
they can almost make it work by doing a ton of "editing" of .form files, or
otherwise hacking around. They have to learn a whole bunch of stuff themselves
that was previously hidden by tooling.

If each of the developers have to spend a whole day doing this, for each project
they have, that's where a lot of wasted time accumulates and people, based on
the comments here and the bugzilla issue, feel like that time is valuable enough
that they should complain there really wasn't a reason for them to end up having
to do all that work, or miss out on other features in newer versions of netbeans
because of it.

For the Netbeans community to sit here and make fun of those people for the
choices they made and make light of the situation overall, is what really
creates a divisive force.

When that much divisive conversation starts flying around, it's no wonder people
are getting angry with the community (for chiding them and dismissing their
opinions as noise) the developers (for apparent inaction in helping them solve
the problem the developers 'created' by removing support for SAF forms) and
hating the platform (look at how they invested their time using features of the
platform, and now feel/know that was a bad choice give how everyone is treating
them).

I expect that most of the "You can't have free cookies" community members are
going to still put the blame on the people who used SAF. I also suspect that
those who are throwing out the "You can't have free cookies" rebuttle don't
understand that many of the people using SAF, quite likely, don't have the
knowledge or skill to support its internals. They are using SAF because they
don't know very much about Java, and the wizard guided them to use it and they
figure it must be something good and supported since it was in netbeans.

I'd also guess that people wonder why I don't support SAF myself. The primary
reason, is that I don't have time to learn about the internals of netbeans to
learn how to integrate it back into the form editor and make all the stuff work.
I, personally don't need all of that functionality, because I understand the
internals of AWT and Swing, completely. I've used them for decades, and I
don't, really need any more tools to write java code. I did use SAF support for
some example apps, and some light weight apps as a time saver.

That's the important thing for me, and many others based on the comments here.
People want to have free cookies, and they will always look for free cookies
because anytime there are some to partake of, there are other things we get to
do with our time, besides bake our own cookies.

When you give away software, that's the boat you live on, with all the free
cookie, cookie monsters. If you don't have the energy to support something,
then it's best not to ever put it in, plain and simple. If you want to be the
one who tries everyone's cookies (SAF was a cookie available to the netbeans
developers, and they seemed to have liked how it tasted), then yes, you can end
up with a sour stomach or feel bloated with too much of a bad thing.

It doesn't matter how many ways we paint the picture. It doesn't matter how
many ways everyone wants to illustrate their point. The problem is that parts
of the community had a different expectation of the platform than was delivered
in the latest update. That, to me, says that the release wasn't a community
event, but rather a "product" event where the community didn't have input into
the packaging that was done.

I really think that community involvement is what we should be putting energy
into, not hammering each other for making decisions that are now demonstrably,
perhaps, not so good to have made.

Gregg
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Bucic Vanja
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:07 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

Thank you.

On Apr 18, 2012, at 4:35 PM, Gregg Wonderly wrote:

Quote:
On 4/18/2012 11:53 AM, Fabrizio Giudici wrote:
Quote:
On Wed, 18 Apr 2012 16:03:34 +0200, Xavier Callejas
<address-removed> wrote:

Quote:

+1

Exactly. Doesn't "NO MORE DEVELOPED" scream much louder than "deprecated"?

I seems to me, that what bothers most people with this issue, is that no one is making comments that really are meaningful in regard to the true nature of continued support of SAF. Even justification comments like the above that say "NO MORE DEVELOPED", are hollow in the fact that java.lang.Object, java.awt.event.Event, java.lang.Integer and many other classes are "NO MORE DEVELOPED" in that they are mature technologies that do something that is useful, and so people use them, and changing them is not necessary because they work to accomplish a realistic goal.

There are lots of other ways to say SAF already was working well enough that it perhaps didn't need anyone doing "more" to it. People took copies of it, and put up their own web sites and "forges" to try and continue "development", but people were happy with the way it worked, or made their own copies if they needed extended functionality. The core of SAF, was solving a problem that many people had with just wanting an application framework that would fill the void between nothing, and something that would "run", as a starting point.

Netbeans RCP solves many more "problems" than SAF does, but so many people don't have the problem set that Netbeans targets, and just need "a window" and that's all. The convenience of other parts of SAF, they might eventually find and depend on as well.

But still the basic issue, is that their forms no longer open in netbeans. Yes, they can almost make it work by doing a ton of "editing" of .form files, or otherwise hacking around. They have to learn a whole bunch of stuff themselves that was previously hidden by tooling.

If each of the developers have to spend a whole day doing this, for each project they have, that's where a lot of wasted time accumulates and people, based on the comments here and the bugzilla issue, feel like that time is valuable enough that they should complain there really wasn't a reason for them to end up having to do all that work, or miss out on other features in newer versions of netbeans because of it.

For the Netbeans community to sit here and make fun of those people for the choices they made and make light of the situation overall, is what really creates a divisive force.

When that much divisive conversation starts flying around, it's no wonder people are getting angry with the community (for chiding them and dismissing their opinions as noise) the developers (for apparent inaction in helping them solve the problem the developers 'created' by removing support for SAF forms) and hating the platform (look at how they invested their time using features of the platform, and now feel/know that was a bad choice give how everyone is treating them).

I expect that most of the "You can't have free cookies" community members are going to still put the blame on the people who used SAF. I also suspect that those who are throwing out the "You can't have free cookies" rebuttle don't understand that many of the people using SAF, quite likely, don't have the knowledge or skill to support its internals. They are using SAF because they don't know very much about Java, and the wizard guided them to use it and they figure it must be something good and supported since it was in netbeans.

I'd also guess that people wonder why I don't support SAF myself. The primary reason, is that I don't have time to learn about the internals of netbeans to learn how to integrate it back into the form editor and make all the stuff work. I, personally don't need all of that functionality, because I understand the internals of AWT and Swing, completely. I've used them for decades, and I don't, really need any more tools to write java code. I did use SAF support for some example apps, and some light weight apps as a time saver.

That's the important thing for me, and many others based on the comments here. People want to have free cookies, and they will always look for free cookies because anytime there are some to partake of, there are other things we get to do with our time, besides bake our own cookies.

When you give away software, that's the boat you live on, with all the free cookie, cookie monsters. If you don't have the energy to support something, then it's best not to ever put it in, plain and simple. If you want to be the one who tries everyone's cookies (SAF was a cookie available to the netbeans developers, and they seemed to have liked how it tasted), then yes, you can end up with a sour stomach or feel bloated with too much of a bad thing.

It doesn't matter how many ways we paint the picture. It doesn't matter how many ways everyone wants to illustrate their point. The problem is that parts of the community had a different expectation of the platform than was delivered in the latest update. That, to me, says that the release wasn't a community event, but rather a "product" event where the community didn't have input into the packaging that was done.

I really think that community involvement is what we should be putting energy into, not hammering each other for making decisions that are now demonstrably, perhaps, not so good to have made.

Gregg

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