NetBeans Forums
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Bucic Vanja
Posted via mailing list.
|
 Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:07 pm Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued |
 |
|
Thank you.
On Apr 18, 2012, at 4:35 PM, Gregg Wonderly wrote:
| Quote: | On 4/18/2012 11:53 AM, Fabrizio Giudici wrote:
| Quote: | On Wed, 18 Apr 2012 16:03:34 +0200, Xavier Callejas
<address-removed> wrote:
Exactly. Doesn't "NO MORE DEVELOPED" scream much louder than "deprecated"?
|
I seems to me, that what bothers most people with this issue, is that no one is making comments that really are meaningful in regard to the true nature of continued support of SAF. Even justification comments like the above that say "NO MORE DEVELOPED", are hollow in the fact that java.lang.Object, java.awt.event.Event, java.lang.Integer and many other classes are "NO MORE DEVELOPED" in that they are mature technologies that do something that is useful, and so people use them, and changing them is not necessary because they work to accomplish a realistic goal.
There are lots of other ways to say SAF already was working well enough that it perhaps didn't need anyone doing "more" to it. People took copies of it, and put up their own web sites and "forges" to try and continue "development", but people were happy with the way it worked, or made their own copies if they needed extended functionality. The core of SAF, was solving a problem that many people had with just wanting an application framework that would fill the void between nothing, and something that would "run", as a starting point.
Netbeans RCP solves many more "problems" than SAF does, but so many people don't have the problem set that Netbeans targets, and just need "a window" and that's all. The convenience of other parts of SAF, they might eventually find and depend on as well.
But still the basic issue, is that their forms no longer open in netbeans. Yes, they can almost make it work by doing a ton of "editing" of .form files, or otherwise hacking around. They have to learn a whole bunch of stuff themselves that was previously hidden by tooling.
If each of the developers have to spend a whole day doing this, for each project they have, that's where a lot of wasted time accumulates and people, based on the comments here and the bugzilla issue, feel like that time is valuable enough that they should complain there really wasn't a reason for them to end up having to do all that work, or miss out on other features in newer versions of netbeans because of it.
For the Netbeans community to sit here and make fun of those people for the choices they made and make light of the situation overall, is what really creates a divisive force.
When that much divisive conversation starts flying around, it's no wonder people are getting angry with the community (for chiding them and dismissing their opinions as noise) the developers (for apparent inaction in helping them solve the problem the developers 'created' by removing support for SAF forms) and hating the platform (look at how they invested their time using features of the platform, and now feel/know that was a bad choice give how everyone is treating them).
I expect that most of the "You can't have free cookies" community members are going to still put the blame on the people who used SAF. I also suspect that those who are throwing out the "You can't have free cookies" rebuttle don't understand that many of the people using SAF, quite likely, don't have the knowledge or skill to support its internals. They are using SAF because they don't know very much about Java, and the wizard guided them to use it and they figure it must be something good and supported since it was in netbeans.
I'd also guess that people wonder why I don't support SAF myself. The primary reason, is that I don't have time to learn about the internals of netbeans to learn how to integrate it back into the form editor and make all the stuff work. I, personally don't need all of that functionality, because I understand the internals of AWT and Swing, completely. I've used them for decades, and I don't, really need any more tools to write java code. I did use SAF support for some example apps, and some light weight apps as a time saver.
That's the important thing for me, and many others based on the comments here. People want to have free cookies, and they will always look for free cookies because anytime there are some to partake of, there are other things we get to do with our time, besides bake our own cookies.
When you give away software, that's the boat you live on, with all the free cookie, cookie monsters. If you don't have the energy to support something, then it's best not to ever put it in, plain and simple. If you want to be the one who tries everyone's cookies (SAF was a cookie available to the netbeans developers, and they seemed to have liked how it tasted), then yes, you can end up with a sour stomach or feel bloated with too much of a bad thing.
It doesn't matter how many ways we paint the picture. It doesn't matter how many ways everyone wants to illustrate their point. The problem is that parts of the community had a different expectation of the platform than was delivered in the latest update. That, to me, says that the release wasn't a community event, but rather a "product" event where the community didn't have input into the packaging that was done.
I really think that community involvement is what we should be putting energy into, not hammering each other for making decisions that are now demonstrably, perhaps, not so good to have made.
Gregg
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Fabrizio Giudici
Posted via mailing list.
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:26 pm Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued |
|
|
On Wed, 18 Apr 2012 22:35:49 +0200, Gregg Wonderly <address-removed>
wrote:
| Quote: | On 4/18/2012 11:53 AM, Fabrizio Giudici wrote:
| Quote: | On Wed, 18 Apr 2012 16:03:34 +0200, Xavier Callejas
<address-removed> wrote:
Exactly. Doesn't "NO MORE DEVELOPED" scream much louder than
"deprecated"?
|
I seems to me, that what bothers most people with this issue, is that no
one is making comments that really are meaningful in regard to the true
nature of continued support of SAF. Even justification comments like
the above that say "NO MORE DEVELOPED", are hollow in the fact that
java.lang.Object, java.awt.event.Event, java.lang.Integer and many other
classes are "NO MORE DEVELOPED" in that they are mature technologies
that do something that is useful, and so people use them, and changing
them is not necessary because they work to accomplish a realistic goal.
|
Sorry Gregg, for this time I won't read more and just comment on this
preamble because I'm a bit tired of this thread. This is playing with
words. DEVELOPED means MAINTAINED. If a bug is ever found in Object or
Integer (which is of course unlikely since they are so simple, thus I
should even add that the comparison doesn't make sense), it will be fixed.
If a bug is found in SAF, nobody will.
At the end of this long, long thread, only a few things remain: that SAF
is no more maintained, that people that still want to use it can use the
previous version of the NetBeans IDE (well, it's no more maintained, but
it's the same of SAF, right? So if SAF "still works" even though
unmaintained, the same holds for an older version of the IDE), and that
people prefer to spend time in writing emails asking for others to fix the
problem rather than fixing the problem themselves. At this point of the
thread, I'm pretty sure that the cumulative amount of time that we spent
on it could have been enough for pulling the sources of the dismissed SAF
plugin and making it work with NetBeans 7.1.
I must say that this is my last contribution to this thread and now I'm
going to mark it as "ignored". Sorry guys, I'm really struggling to keep
up with all the tons of emails and feeds I read and moreover my time will
be better spent in answering some more practical question in the NetBeans
community.
--
Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager
Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere."
address-removed
http://tidalwave.it - http://fabriziogiudici.it |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rcasha
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 35
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:20 am Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued |
|
|
And this is precisely why the Netbeans developers are so unreliable and the use of their products a major liability.
Ramon Casha
On 19 April 2012 00:04, Fabrizio Giudici <address-removed ([email]address-removed[/email])> wrote:
| Quote: | On Wed, 18 Apr 2012 22:35:49 +0200, Gregg Wonderly <address-removed ([email]address-removed[/email])> wrote:
| Quote: | On 4/18/2012 11:53 AM, Fabrizio Giudici wrote:
| Quote: | On Wed, 18 Apr 2012 16:03:34 +0200, Xavier Callejas
<address-removed ([email]address-removed[/email])> wrote:
Exactly. Doesn't "NO MORE DEVELOPED" scream much louder than "deprecated"?
|
I seems to me, that what bothers most people with this issue, is that no one is making comments that really are meaningful in regard to the true nature of continued support of SAF. Even justification comments like the above that say "NO MORE DEVELOPED", are hollow in the fact that java.lang.Object, java.awt.event.Event, java.lang.Integer and many other classes are "NO MORE DEVELOPED" in that they are mature technologies that do something that is useful, and so people use them, and changing them is not necessary because they work to accomplish a realistic goal.
|
Sorry Gregg, for this time I won't read more and just comment on this preamble because I'm a bit tired of this thread. This is playing with words. DEVELOPED means MAINTAINED. If a bug is ever found in Object or Integer (which is of course unlikely since they are so simple, thus I should even add that the comparison doesn't make sense), it will be fixed. If a bug is found in SAF, nobody will.
At the end of this long, long thread, only a few things remain: that SAF is no more maintained, that people that still want to use it can use the previous version of the NetBeans IDE (well, it's no more maintained, but it's the same of SAF, right? So if SAF "still works" even though unmaintained, the same holds for an older version of the IDE), and that people prefer to spend time in writing emails asking for others to fix the problem rather than fixing the problem themselves. At this point of the thread, I'm pretty sure that the cumulative amount of time that we spent on it could have been enough for pulling the sources of the dismissed SAF plugin and making it work with NetBeans 7.1.
I must say that this is my last contribution to this thread and now I'm going to mark it as "ignored". Sorry guys, I'm really struggling to keep up with all the tons of emails and feeds I read and moreover my time will be better spent in answering some more practical question in the NetBeans community.
--
Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager
Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere."
address-removed ([email]address-removed[/email])
http://tidalwave.it - http://fabriziogiudici.it
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Glenn Holmer
Posted via mailing list.
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:24 pm Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued |
|
|
On Thu, 2012-04-19 at 07:58 +0200, Ramon Casha wrote:
| Quote: | And this is precisely why the Netbeans developers are so unreliable
and the use of their products a major liability.
|
Ramon, that's just plain rude.
--
____________________________________________________________
Glenn Holmer address-removed
Software Engineer phone: 414-908-1809
Weyco Group, Inc. fax: 414-908-1601 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
marc.farrow
Joined: 15 Aug 2008
Posts: 157
Location: South Carolina
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:30 pm Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued |
|
|
This topic is a dead horse. The framework is not supported by the Language. NB should not support it. If you love something so much start supporting it yourself and man up and stop blaming the world because it is an inconvenience to you. On Apr 19, 2012 1:58 AM, "Ramon Casha" <address-removed ([email]address-removed[/email])> wrote: | Quote: | And this is precisely why the Netbeans developers are so unreliable and the use of their products a major liability.
Ramon Casha
On 19 April 2012 00:04, Fabrizio Giudici <address-removed ([email]address-removed[/email])> wrote:
| Quote: | On Wed, 18 Apr 2012 22:35:49 +0200, Gregg Wonderly <address-removed ([email]address-removed[/email])> wrote:
| Quote: | On 4/18/2012 11:53 AM, Fabrizio Giudici wrote:
| Quote: | On Wed, 18 Apr 2012 16:03:34 +0200, Xavier Callejas
<address-removed ([email]address-removed[/email])> wrote:
Exactly. Doesn't "NO MORE DEVELOPED" scream much louder than "deprecated"?
|
I seems to me, that what bothers most people with this issue, is that no one is making comments that really are meaningful in regard to the true nature of continued support of SAF. Even justification comments like the above that say "NO MORE DEVELOPED", are hollow in the fact that java.lang.Object, java.awt.event.Event, java.lang.Integer and many other classes are "NO MORE DEVELOPED" in that they are mature technologies that do something that is useful, and so people use them, and changing them is not necessary because they work to accomplish a realistic goal.
|
Sorry Gregg, for this time I won't read more and just comment on this preamble because I'm a bit tired of this thread. This is playing with words. DEVELOPED means MAINTAINED. If a bug is ever found in Object or Integer (which is of course unlikely since they are so simple, thus I should even add that the comparison doesn't make sense), it will be fixed. If a bug is found in SAF, nobody will.
At the end of this long, long thread, only a few things remain: that SAF is no more maintained, that people that still want to use it can use the previous version of the NetBeans IDE (well, it's no more maintained, but it's the same of SAF, right? So if SAF "still works" even though unmaintained, the same holds for an older version of the IDE), and that people prefer to spend time in writing emails asking for others to fix the problem rather than fixing the problem themselves. At this point of the thread, I'm pretty sure that the cumulative amount of time that we spent on it could have been enough for pulling the sources of the dismissed SAF plugin and making it work with NetBeans 7.1.
I must say that this is my last contribution to this thread and now I'm going to mark it as "ignored". Sorry guys, I'm really struggling to keep up with all the tons of emails and feeds I read and moreover my time will be better spent in answering some more practical question in the NetBeans community.
--
Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager
Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere."
address-removed ([email]address-removed[/email])
http://tidalwave.it - http://fabriziogiudici.it
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bayless Kirtley
Posted via mailing list.
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:15 pm Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued |
|
|
+1
If you really feel that strongly about it then the reasonable solution is to
leave Netbeans.
-----Original Message-----
From: Glenn Holmer
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 8:01 AM
To: address-removed
Subject: [nbusers] Re: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued
On Thu, 2012-04-19 at 07:58 +0200, Ramon Casha wrote:
| Quote: | And this is precisely why the Netbeans developers are so unreliable
and the use of their products a major liability.
|
Ramon, that's just plain rude.
--
____________________________________________________________
Glenn Holmer address-removed
Software Engineer phone: 414-908-1809
Weyco Group, Inc. fax: 414-908-1601 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rcasha
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 35
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:17 pm Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued |
|
|
I consider it far worse than rude to actively break applications that were working quite well with this framework.
@Marc: This topic will be a dead horse when the forms designer is fixed so that it can either open existing forms developed using the framework that Netbeans was promoting, or convert them to plain Swing. No framework is supported by the language, not SAF, not beans-binding, not NCP. But... SAF was working, JSR or no JSR. Nobody expects NB to support SAF for the same reason that nobody expects them to support log4J or commons-collections. But nobody expects them to prevent forms that use Log4J from opening either - especially if it was being actively promoted AND if there is no simple way to convert from that library to the other.
Ramon Casha |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wade Chandler
Posted via mailing list.
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:12 pm Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued |
|
|
On 04/12/2012 09:59 AM, Gregg Wonderly wrote:
| Quote: | On 4/11/2012 10:50 PM, Ramon Casha wrote:
| Quote: | Xavier,
By "migrate them to NBP" I suppose you mean "rewrite them for NBP",
right?
Ramon Casha
On 11 April 2012 17:44, Xavier Callejas <address-removed
<mailto:address-removed>> wrote:
__
NB should not support technology that is deprecated.
|
The JSR was shutdown, that doesn't deprecate the technology. That
merely removes it from a "path" to becoming part of the JDK. There
are countless technologies written for the JVM which are not "in the
JDK".
Using the "its no longer a JSR" perhaps helps them to feel that their
decision is "valid". The ruckus it has caused here, and the emotions
that people are showing, I feel, clearly identifies that it's not such
a "simple" decision point.
|
I want to say that the NB devs are a great bunch of guys. They are just
people like us all. Same goes for their managers.
Second, I agree completely with Gregg's statement. I think the issue
with JSRs is just that. Just because a JSR shuts down doesn't mean the
technology is no longer supported nor that it isn't a great technology.
In this case, the SAF is no longer being maintained though. Not just
that the JSR isn't maintained.
The NB folks could have went to the BSAF for the time being. Too, they
could have just called it legacy and left it there. The template could
have been changed to state the facts about its maintenance. Talking with
the Oracle folks it seems they understand this could have been better.
That doesn't bring it back of course.
That said, what exactly is lost in this? Frames, dialogs, panels etc are
all still able to be developed in the IDE. Internationalization is still
able to be done. Actions are still able to be created. SAF specific
things can still be managed, annotations, classes, etc, just obviously
various things won't be directly handled by the IDE, and the library
will have to be added to the IDE by someone if it wasn't added to the
project instead of using the one in the IDE. I'm still trying to
understand how this keeps one from being able to manage their project
with NetBeans since it was done with SAF. Does someone have some points
on this? Does anyone have a project they can share so that I can inspect
it to give some feedback on what works and what doesn't and how it is a
complete show stopper for projects? Perhaps something could be done to
help folks out.
Thanks,
Wade
--
=================
Wade Chandler
Software Engineer and Consultant
NetBeans Contributor
NetBeans Dream Team Member
wadechandler.com
netbeans.org |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
srfpala
Joined: 16 Oct 2008
Posts: 24
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:45 pm Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued |
|
|
OpenJDK 7 for Windows reroutes me to java.oracle.com. While at the Oracle site I search for SAF and find
" If you develop Swing applications, you can benefit from the Swing Application Framework, which is currently being developed as part of Java Specification Request (JSR) 296. " Perhaps this is obsolete but not mentioned.
So am I to believe that SAF is still being developed within JSR 296 but not within NetBeans ?
I'm confused - any help ? ?
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: Glenn Holmer [mailto:address-removed]
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 8:02 AM
To: address-removed
Subject: [nbusers] Re: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued
On Thu, 2012-04-19 at 07:58 +0200, Ramon Casha wrote:
| Quote: | And this is precisely why the Netbeans developers are so unreliable
and the use of their products a major liability.
|
Ramon, that's just plain rude.
--
____________________________________________________________
Glenn Holmer address-removed
Software Engineer phone: 414-908-1809
Weyco Group, Inc. fax: 414-908-1601 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Artur Rataj
Posted via mailing list.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
thietkelogo
Joined: 25 Apr 2012
Posts: 4
Location: Vietnam
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I have looked over the post from the users, but unfortunately no anwser is the best |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Moshe Matitya
Posted via mailing list.
|
| Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 12:00 pm Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued |
|
|
Sorry to have to break this, but discontinuing further development of a released library (particularly one that is not an alpha or beta release) is also not equivalent to the library being deprecated.
So there's no need to edit the Wikipedia entry.
Moshe
-----Original Message-----
From: Milos Kleint [mailto:address-removed]
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 3:22 PM
To: address-removed
Subject: [nbusers] Re: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued
well, you might want to edit the wikipedia entry which clearly says
the project was "discontinued" ergo noone is working on it.. that's a
bit more that just "not part of JDK"..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swing_Application_Framework
Milos
On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 2:08 PM, Moshe Matitya
<address-removed> wrote:
| Quote: | THANK YOU for making that point, Gregg.
The fact that a library is not part of the JDK does NOT mean that the library is "deprecated". |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Moshe Matitya
Posted via mailing list.
|
| Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 12:16 pm Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued |
|
|
I didn't state that they despise other developers.
YOU suggested that the NB developers regard the countless apps created by their wizard as nothing more than free cookie samples in a grocery store.
I am saying that IF your bizarre suggestion were actually correct, then that would constitute contempt for those users.
But please, feel free to twist my words into something else entirely, if you'd like.
Moshe
From: Mark Wilmoth [mailto:address-removed]
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 4:52 PM
To: address-removed
Subject: [nbusers] Re: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/contempt
NetBeans developers willfully despise other developers that use NetBeans?
This is a new all time low Moshe, congratulations!
Mark
From: Moshe Matitya <address-removed>
To: "address-removed" <address-removed>
Sent: Wed, April 18, 2012 6:59:59 AM
Subject: [nbusers] Re: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued
In previous versions of NB (6.9 and earlier), when the user would use the Create Project wizard to create a project of the type innocently named "Desktop Application" (no mention whatsoever of SAF, mind you) -- it would create an SAF app.
If the NB developers actually regard the countless apps created by their wizard the way you describe – as nothing more than free cookie samples in a grocery store – then that is the best reason I have ever heard to run from NB like the plague, and switch to a platform like Eclipse, whose developers do not regard their users with the contempt that you so colorfully describe.
Moshe
From: Mark Wilmoth [mailto:address-removed]
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2012 5:24 PM
To: address-removed
Subject: [nbusers] Re: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued
I go to the grocery store and they give out free samples of cookies every day. I love going there and getting my free cookie. I never buy anything, I just want a free cookie. I am quite addicted to my free cookie! One day I go in and they are not giving out free cookies any longer. As a matter of fact they have discontinued the program to give free cookie samples!
How could they do such a thing! They encouraged me to like the cookies and then pulled the rug out from under me!
They are untrustworthy and I will never go to that store again!
Mark
From: Ramon Casha <address-removed>
To: address-removed
Sent: Wed, April 11, 2012 8:56:13 AM
Subject: [nbusers] Re: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued
It has nothing to do with "removing a framework". It has everything to do with FIRST encouraging developers to use a framework, then removing code that was working perfectly in such a way that all the forms developed - many hundreds of forms - can't even be OPENED using the designer. Those claims of trustworthiness are neither wild nor ridiculous.
Ramon Casha
On 11 April 2012 15:34, Mack06 <address-removed ([email]address-removed[/email])> wrote:
It might be disappointing that they removed a framework that was dead and never was standardized in the first place... but making wild, ridiculous claims of trustworthiness to villainize NetBeans people is uncalled for! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Moshe Matitya
Posted via mailing list.
|
| Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 12:37 pm Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued |
|
|
Gregg: Thank you for taking the time and effort to explain, with detail and clarity, what so many of us feel and are trying to say.
Moshe
-----Original Message-----
From: Gregg Wonderly [mailto:address-removed]
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 11:36 PM
To: address-removed
Subject: [nbusers] Re: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued
On 4/18/2012 11:53 AM, Fabrizio Giudici wrote:
| Quote: | On Wed, 18 Apr 2012 16:03:34 +0200, Xavier Callejas
<address-removed> wrote:
Exactly. Doesn't "NO MORE DEVELOPED" scream much louder than "deprecated"?
|
I seems to me, that what bothers most people with this issue, is that no one is
making comments that really are meaningful in regard to the true nature of
continued support of SAF. Even justification comments like the above that say
"NO MORE DEVELOPED", are hollow in the fact that java.lang.Object,
java.awt.event.Event, java.lang.Integer and many other classes are "NO MORE
DEVELOPED" in that they are mature technologies that do something that is
useful, and so people use them, and changing them is not necessary because they
work to accomplish a realistic goal.
There are lots of other ways to say SAF already was working well enough that it
perhaps didn't need anyone doing "more" to it. People took copies of it, and
put up their own web sites and "forges" to try and continue "development", but
people were happy with the way it worked, or made their own copies if they
needed extended functionality. The core of SAF, was solving a problem that many
people had with just wanting an application framework that would fill the void
between nothing, and something that would "run", as a starting point.
Netbeans RCP solves many more "problems" than SAF does, but so many people don't
have the problem set that Netbeans targets, and just need "a window" and that's
all. The convenience of other parts of SAF, they might eventually find and
depend on as well.
But still the basic issue, is that their forms no longer open in netbeans. Yes,
they can almost make it work by doing a ton of "editing" of .form files, or
otherwise hacking around. They have to learn a whole bunch of stuff themselves
that was previously hidden by tooling.
If each of the developers have to spend a whole day doing this, for each project
they have, that's where a lot of wasted time accumulates and people, based on
the comments here and the bugzilla issue, feel like that time is valuable enough
that they should complain there really wasn't a reason for them to end up having
to do all that work, or miss out on other features in newer versions of netbeans
because of it.
For the Netbeans community to sit here and make fun of those people for the
choices they made and make light of the situation overall, is what really
creates a divisive force.
When that much divisive conversation starts flying around, it's no wonder people
are getting angry with the community (for chiding them and dismissing their
opinions as noise) the developers (for apparent inaction in helping them solve
the problem the developers 'created' by removing support for SAF forms) and
hating the platform (look at how they invested their time using features of the
platform, and now feel/know that was a bad choice give how everyone is treating
them).
I expect that most of the "You can't have free cookies" community members are
going to still put the blame on the people who used SAF. I also suspect that
those who are throwing out the "You can't have free cookies" rebuttle don't
understand that many of the people using SAF, quite likely, don't have the
knowledge or skill to support its internals. They are using SAF because they
don't know very much about Java, and the wizard guided them to use it and they
figure it must be something good and supported since it was in netbeans.
I'd also guess that people wonder why I don't support SAF myself. The primary
reason, is that I don't have time to learn about the internals of netbeans to
learn how to integrate it back into the form editor and make all the stuff work.
I, personally don't need all of that functionality, because I understand the
internals of AWT and Swing, completely. I've used them for decades, and I
don't, really need any more tools to write java code. I did use SAF support for
some example apps, and some light weight apps as a time saver.
That's the important thing for me, and many others based on the comments here.
People want to have free cookies, and they will always look for free cookies
because anytime there are some to partake of, there are other things we get to
do with our time, besides bake our own cookies.
When you give away software, that's the boat you live on, with all the free
cookie, cookie monsters. If you don't have the energy to support something,
then it's best not to ever put it in, plain and simple. If you want to be the
one who tries everyone's cookies (SAF was a cookie available to the netbeans
developers, and they seemed to have liked how it tasted), then yes, you can end
up with a sour stomach or feel bloated with too much of a bad thing.
It doesn't matter how many ways we paint the picture. It doesn't matter how
many ways everyone wants to illustrate their point. The problem is that parts
of the community had a different expectation of the platform than was delivered
in the latest update. That, to me, says that the release wasn't a community
event, but rather a "product" event where the community didn't have input into
the packaging that was done.
I really think that community involvement is what we should be putting energy
into, not hammering each other for making decisions that are now demonstrably,
perhaps, not so good to have made.
Gregg |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Moshe Matitya
Posted via mailing list.
|
| Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 12:40 pm Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued |
|
|
I don't know if it's "rude". But it's *definitely* a 100% spot-on description of how a very significant number of NetBeans users are feeling, and of a major factor in the decisions they are now making for future development.
Moshe
-----Original Message-----
From: Glenn Holmer [mailto:address-removed]
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 4:02 PM
To: address-removed
Subject: [nbusers] Re: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued
On Thu, 2012-04-19 at 07:58 +0200, Ramon Casha wrote:
| Quote: | And this is precisely why the Netbeans developers are so unreliable
and the use of their products a major liability.
|
Ramon, that's just plain rude.
--
____________________________________________________________
Glenn Holmer address-removed
Software Engineer phone: 414-908-1809
Weyco Group, Inc. fax: 414-908-1601 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You can attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
