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NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued
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Fabrizio Giudici
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:23 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

On Sun, 18 Mar 2012 16:50:20 +0100, diek <address-removed> wrote:

Quote:
Ok now you have me even more confused than I was before. From the link:
"What happens when I attempt to open a GUI form that uses Swing
Application Framework in NetBeans 7.1?
The GUI Builder will refuse to open the form and will explain that the
support of Swing Application Framework was discontinued. It will also
suggest to use NetBeans IDE 7.0.1 to edit such forms.
A solution for converting existing forms to "plain Swing" is described
in Bug 204661."

This is exactly the problem I am having. So if you are patient enough to
explain. How is what I said different, from the above? And please do not
read any tone into the question. Thank you.

It's simple: Swing Application Framework != Swing. SAF was a library based
on Swing. SAF is no more supported, the latter is. Also because NetBeans
Platform is based on Swing too.


--
Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager
Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere."
address-removed
http://tidalwave.it - http://fabriziogiudici.it
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diek



Joined: 20 Jan 2012
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:23 pm    Post subject: Starting to Get It Reply with quote

Ramon, Good explanation. I am starting to see it. I am going to discuss the issue with my instructor. Thanks.
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Bob McConnell
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:55 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

Quote:
From: Matthias Bläsing

Am Sonntag, den 18.03.2012, 02:36 +0000 schrieb diek:
Quote:
So how to confuse a student of Java, tell him that swing is no longer
supported, then give gui examples using swing. One person wrote that
swing is still being taught in schools and he is correct.

So PLEASE STOP SPREADING FUD! It gets annoying.

Matthias,

It's not FUD, it's real confusion that is felt by far too many people. It is the direct result of the Java documents having so bloody many acronyms. If people were less lazy and used full names for the various ideas instead of just the initials, it would be a lot easier on all of us.

Bob McConnell
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Thomas Wolf
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:55 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

On Mar 19, 2012, at 8:37 AM, Bob McConnell wrote:

Quote:
Quote:
From: Matthias Bl
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Bayless Kirtley
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:25 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

Well said Tom.


-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas Wolf
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 8:36 AM
To: address-removed
Subject: [nbusers] Re: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued


On Mar 19, 2012, at 8:37 AM, Bob McConnell wrote:

Quote:
Quote:
From: Matthias Bl
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rcasha



Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:28 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

Javier,

Because it's a crude hack and it only works on the forms I tested it on so far - which means, the features I happen to use (eg. actions without blocking, etc). Ideally Netbeans should have a converter that does that conversion, replacing all uses of the SAF features in the designer with ResourceBundles etc.
Ramon Casha


On 18 March 2012 19:11, Javier Ortiz <address-removed ([email]address-removed[/email])> wrote:
Quote:
Why isn't the XSLT transformation good enough? It was given in that post. If it works just bundle it as a bundle, load it to the Plug-in system and voila!
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Glenn Holmer
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:42 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

On Mon, 2012-03-19 at 14:11 +0000, Javier Ortiz wrote:
Quote:
But it’s sure a start. You can’t expect a magic wizard that will do
100% of the work for you. Even if NetBeans did have a converter I
doubt it would work on 100% of cases.

http://www.splendad.com/ads/show/1340-IBM-Pixie-Dust

Quote:
From: Ramon Casha [mailto:address-removed]
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 9:09 AM
To: address-removed
Subject: [nbusers] Re: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support
discontinued




Javier,

Because it's a crude hack and it only works on the forms I tested it
on so far - which means, the features I happen to use (eg. actions
without blocking, etc). Ideally Netbeans should have a converter that
does that conversion, replacing all uses of the SAF features in the
designer with ResourceBundles etc.

Ramon Casha



On 18 March 2012 19:11, Javier Ortiz <address-removed>
wrote:

Why isn't the XSLT transformation good enough? It was given in that
post. If it works just bundle it as a bundle, load it to the Plug-in
system and voila!


--
____________________________________________________________
Glenn Holmer address-removed
Software Engineer phone: 414-908-1809
Weyco Group, Inc. fax: 414-908-1601
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Bob McConnell
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:49 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

Quote:
From: Thomas Wolf

On Mar 19, 2012, at 8:37 AM, Bob McConnell wrote:

Quote:
Quote:
From: Matthias Bl
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Thomas Wolf
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:03 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

On Mar 19, 2012, at 10:26 AM, Bob McConnell wrote:
Quote:
Tom,

I've been writing software off and on since 1968, and am now trying to decide when to retire. The gross obfuscation via TLA[1] contained in the Java documents is the worst I have seen in all of that time, and it will cause me to retire sooner. Yes, it is even worse than all of the superfluous overhead and obfuscation by misdirection foisted on us by the people pushing the Object Oriented fad.

No, I did not take up Java voluntarily, nor have I been given time to learn how to navigate that alphabet soup of acronyms, let alone figure out how to use any of those packages. The whole architecture is far too complex for a casual user to learn their way around it. For those of us that only do it part time, because I still have to support other projects in several other languages at the same time, it is impossible to learn it at all. It was far easier for me to debug a real-time kernel in assembler via the JTAG interface on an ARM CPU (Digi ConnectME). But then, assembler is the language I am most comfortable in. At least those abbreviations have a logical structure.

Has anyone ever published a complete dictionary of the Java abbreviations? That would be a real starting point.

Bob McConnell

[1] TLA = Three letter acronyms, just to add a sample of how they should have been notated the first time they appeared in every document.


While I haven't written software for as long as you, I, too, have been at it for almost 30 years. And I don't share your view. I've found the domain of Web-based development far more cryptic & full of acronyms than Java or its language predecessors (C, C++). But I don't complain about it - I simply do a lot of lookups - until I get used to them. I see the use of acronyms as a necessary evil in keeping the length of communication/documentation somewhat reasonable. By the way (BTW), I think this is a better way of introducing an abbreviation/acronym - as it doesn't require a footnote :-)

Best regards,
Tom
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rcasha



Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:45 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

Javier,

"You can’t expect a magic wizard that will do 100% of the work for you."


You'd be surprised at what I can expect Smile

Seriously though, there's no reason that a converter can't convert the "generated code" section into plain swing / resource bundles / actions, and thus leave the form in a form that can be supported by the designer. I almost got there with a simple XSLT file


Ramon Casha
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Ricardo Palomares Martíne
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:47 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

El 15/03/12 09:44, Fabrizio Giudici escribió:
Quote:
On Wed, 14 Mar 2012 23:28:07 +0100, Ricardo Palomares Martínez
<address-removed> wrote:
Quote:
- It has been said that you can get up with a NBP based application in
just a 7 MBytes package. Yes, but I maintain a very small desktop
application (37k lines including comments) that builds into... a 625
Kbytes JAR. I could add SAF to it with a 188 Kbytes JAR (BSAF,
actually). NBP can't compete with that.

Clearly not. Consider that those 7MB could be even further trimmed
down, probably 2-3 MB less, but certainly not to 1MB. But allow me to
ask: what's about it? Smile It shouldn't run on a mobile phone, where
space is limited, right?


Sorry for this late answer, I'm late with my emails. :-)

I've browsed SolidBlue sources, which I think is your 7 MB NB
application. The ZIP with source code is 428 KBytes.

In contrast, the application I talk about is this:

http://kenai.com/projects/moztrans/downloads/directory/MT%20v5.26

whose source code ZIP is 1,4 MBytes, and the JAR is about 700 KBytes.
While the application (which I inherited, I'm not the original author)
is surely ugly and by no means has a modern look, I believe that it
has a broader feature set than SolidBlue (being completely different
purpose applications, of course). And I'm not questioning your coding
style, which I *know* it is far, far better than mine. Smile What I
stand is that the features define if the application is worth coding
it, not the resulting size of the JAR. If my application can do what
it does with a JAR under 1 MB, should I ditch it? Or should I add
things to it I don't need just to make it larger?

Ricardo.

--
Ricardo Palomares (RickieES)
Diaspora: https://diasp.eu/u/rickiees
Skype: rickie0341971
Jabber: address-removed
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Jim Thevenot
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:51 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

Quote:
While I agree that it doesn't rise to the level of FUD, people ought to be
able to tell the difference between a sentence that says Swing and one that
says "Swing SAF". You call the writers of Java documentation "lazy", but it
seems to me that it's the people who are learning Java who are too lazy - I
mean even if they don't know what SAF stands for, shouldn't they make the
effort to find out before they spout off about the end of the world/Swing?
Typing into Google "Swing SAF" returns as its first hit a Wikipedia entry
that explains it and the "confused" people have asked the same ignorant
question in this forum for well over a year - so there are plenty of
archived posts that explain the difference.
Quote:

Acronyms & abbreviations are not unique to Java documentation - I don't
even think Java is a case that has that many. If you're planning on a
career in software development, you better get used to it. If you're
already well into such a career, I'm surprised at your statement.
Quote:

Best regards,
Tom

Part of that is highly off-topic, slightly insulting and has no place in a
technical discussion. I wish you would cut that stuff out of this your
other replies.

The idea that SAF is not Swing is obvious to people that use them but highly
un-obvious to people that don't. An 'average person' wouldn't directly know
the difference between Swing Application Framework and Swing Interface
Design, especially since both 'application' and 'framework' have equally
valid non proper noun definitions. Every swing program I've ever written
has some form of framework for the application that is built using Swing (by
definition). So if FUD is to be avoided it needs to be avoided at the onset
by specifically describing what is removed and what isn't removed. Saying
'just read the FAQ/google it/you should know' is a cop out.

When saying things the audience needs to be considered since they define
context not the one doing the saying. The fact that there is confusion is
absolute proof that confusion could exist by just saying 'SAF is out'.
Blaming the people that are confused is na
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Fabrizio Giudici
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:20 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

On Mon, 19 Mar 2012 18:32:22 +0100, Jim Thevenot <address-removed>
wrote:

Quote:
The idea that SAF is not Swing is obvious to people that use them but
highly
un-obvious to people that don't.

Do you think that we should also recall people that JavaScript is not
Java? Surprised)

Seriously, it has been pointed out that googling was enough to understand
the difference. For what concerns the abuse of acronyms, I understand it
can be frustrating, but consider that there are people having even more
problems - for instance, acronyms weren't frequent in my mother language
(italian) but are getting more and more used as part of the influence of
English, even in the common life (e.g. NIMBY). There's nothing that we can
do, we have to live with them.

Quote:
open products. I understand that it was removed from what is 'Java', but
were the users of NB actually consulted first for its removal in NB?

As Gregg pointed out in what I consider the only really relevant point in
this discussion, the governance model of NetBeans doesn't work in this
way. In other words, we only get notified when a new feature is in or out
(BTW - it means "by the way" - in any case this gets notified in advance
in the road map). I understand the desire for a change, but even this
point seems to focus all the energy in the blaming part, without any
concrete proposal to change things.



--
Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager
Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere."
address-removed
http://tidalwave.it - http://fabriziogiudici.it
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Thomas Wolf
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:19 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

On Mar 19, 2012, at 1:32 PM, Jim Thevenot wrote:

Quote:
Part of that is highly off-topic, slightly insulting and has no place in a
technical discussion. I wish you would cut that stuff out of this your
other replies.

I did not mean to be insulting, but neither did I start the discussion on the perceived heavy use of abbreviations.

Quote:

The idea that SAF is not Swing is obvious to people that use them but highly
un-obvious to people that don't. An 'average person' wouldn't directly know
the difference between Swing Application Framework and Swing Interface
Design, especially since both 'application' and 'framework' have equally
valid non proper noun definitions. Every swing program I've ever written
has some form of framework for the application that is built using Swing (by
definition). So if FUD is to be avoided it needs to be avoided at the onset
by specifically describing what is removed and what isn't removed. Saying
'just read the FAQ/google it/you should know' is a cop out.

I did not suggest that an average person should know the difference between Swing and SAF. I tried to suggest that some rudimentary research on the topic might be beneficial in order to avoid alarmist posts to a NB- (not java-) specific forum.

Quote:
When saying things the audience needs to be considered since they define
context not the one doing the saying. The fact that there is confusion is
absolute proof that confusion could exist by just saying 'SAF is out'.
Blaming the people that are confused is na
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Jim Thevenot
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:05 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:
The idea that SAF is not Swing is obvious to people that use them but
highly
un-obvious to people that don't.

Do you think that we should also recall people that JavaScript is not
Java? Surprised)

Absolutely! *If* people are confused by a statement you make and think you
are talking about the 'other one'. If that happens, you absolutely, 100%,
need to have said things in such a way as to have avoided the confusion.
Here, there has been confusion and not from a single person. Saying the
people that are confused are wrong, is wrong.

Quote:

Seriously, it has been pointed out that googling was enough to understand

the difference. For what concerns the abuse of acronyms, I understand it
can be frustrating, but consider that there are people having even more
problems - for instance, acronyms weren't frequent in my mother language
(italian) but are getting more and more used as part of the influence of
English, even in the common life (e.g. NIMBY). There's nothing that we can
do, we have to live with them.

The problem is that people don't even know they needed to look up these
things given that the words are so common. If I say something about QFT and
you think I mean 'quoted for truth' when I actually meant my physics, you
won't even know that you needed to google it because all the words made
sense to you as written. Hence, my belief that it is the 'sayers' duty to
get it right before it is the 'listeners' duty to know what was said. I
guess being on the saying end a lot and having responsibility that the
message is understood has given me bias. But in the end, me saying this
won't actually make anybody consider that it could be true (and it might not
even be true). In my experience, it is only experience that can change a
person's outlook.

So in the end people are saying that "you should have looked it up because
you didn't know that it didn't mean what you thought it meant." That is
absurd. It wasn't lack of knowing what it meant that was the problem it is
not knowing they were incorrect in their knowledge that was the problem.
Nobody knows this, ever, about anything.

Quote:
Quote:
open products. I understand that it was removed from what is 'Java', but
were the users of NB actually consulted first for its removal in NB?

As Gregg pointed out in what I consider the only really relevant point in

this discussion, the governance model of NetBeans doesn't work in this
way. In other words, we only get notified when a new feature is in or out
(BTW - it means "by the way" - in any case this gets notified in advance
in the road map). I understand the desire for a change, but even this
point seems to focus all the energy in the blaming part, without any
concrete proposal to change things.

This is the scary part, but I'm mostly IDE agnostic anyway so it isn't any
skin of my nose since I had already dismissed the Netbeans Platform for my
company anyway (I have used it personally a couple of times and it is nice
enough, it just doesn't meet the requirements for our clients or internal
tools).

As for a concrete proposal, I propose that NB continue doing things the way
'they' solely feel is correct and all the 'users' just "lump it". If a user
has a product that relies on a feature that was removed, they are sol. I
have high confidence that my proposal will be put into practice.

Jim T.
my EOL
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