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NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued
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giorgio42



Joined: 15 Aug 2008
Posts: 120

PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 4:58 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

Hi,

I just installed NB 7.1 Beta, and tried to open one of our many Swing Application Framework-based applications, just to be greeted with a message, that this is not supported any longer in NetBeans 7.1 and I am supposed to stay on NetBeans 7.0.

Which leaves me without the long awaited (at least 10 years or so...) import crunching and support for editing rectangular blocks.

Discontinuing support for existing frameworks has always been one of the hobbys the NetBeans team has always pursued with relentless passion over the years, much to the chagrin of their users. Sometimes it impacted them negatively in a really big way like abandoning support for UML and visual editing of web interfaces, or when trying to push Glassfish by stopping support for Tomcat, a decision, which some sane mind at Sun finally turned around again etc.).

Now the team is using yet another opportunity to annoy their user community.

Cheers,
Georg
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Delf Egge
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:43 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

Hello Georg,

Right you are! There are more (negative) examples. Maybe one ought to
consider Eclipse or other tools.

Best regards,
Delf


Am 09.10.2011 18:59, schrieb giorgio42:
Quote:
Hi,

I just installed NB 7.1 Beta, and tried to open one of our many Swing Application Framework-based applications, just to be greeted with a message, that this is not supported any longer in NetBeans 7.1 and I am supposed to stay on NetBeans 7.0.

Which leaves me without the long awaited (at least 10 years or so...) import crunching and support for editing rectangular blocks.

Discontinuing support for existing frameworks has always been one of the hobbys the NetBeans team has always pursued with relentless passion over the years, much to the chagrin of their users. Sometimes it impacted them negatively in a really big way like abandoning support for UML and visual editing of web interfaces, or when trying to push Glassfish by stopping support for Tomcat, a decision, which some sane mind at Sun finally turned around again etc.).

Now the team is using yet another opportunity to annoy their user community.

Cheers,
Georg
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Geertjan Wielenga
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 4:10 am    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

On 10/09/2011 06:59 PM, giorgio42 wrote:
Quote:
Hi,

I just installed NB 7.1 Beta, and tried to open one of our many Swing Application Framework-based applications, just to be greeted with a message, that this is not supported any longer in NetBeans 7.1 and I am supposed to stay on NetBeans 7.0.

A problem with that framework is that it was intended to be part of the
JDK, but it has always been nothing more than a JSR. It is always risky
to use a JSR for production code while it hasn't passed through the
review process to make it into the JDK. Now that it hasn't made it into
the JDK, it makes sense to drop support for it in the IDE.

Never mind, though, because there is a much more robust Swing
application framework out there, with many more features as well as much
more documentation:

http://netbeans.org/kb/trails/platform.html

Gj

Quote:
Which leaves me without the long awaited (at least 10 years or so...) import crunching and support for editing rectangular blocks.

Discontinuing support for existing frameworks has always been one of the hobbys the NetBeans team has always pursued with relentless passion over the years, much to the chagrin of their users. Sometimes it impacted them negatively in a really big way like abandoning support for UML and visual editing of web interfaces, or when trying to push Glassfish by stopping support for Tomcat, a decision, which some sane mind at Sun finally turned around again etc.).

Now the team is using yet another opportunity to annoy their user community.

Cheers,
Georg



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rcasha



Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:00 am    Post subject: Re: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
On 10/09/2011 06:59 PM, giorgio42 wrote:
A problem with that framework is that it was intended to be part of the
JDK, but it has always been nothing more than a JSR. It is always risky
to use a JSR for production code while it hasn't passed through the
review process to make it into the JDK. Now that it hasn't made it into
the JDK, it makes sense to drop support for it in the IDE.

Never mind, though, because there is a much more robust Swing
application framework out there, with many more features as well as much
more documentation:

http://netbeans.org/kb/trails/platform.html

Gj


The Netbeans platform is an utterly inadequate replacement for SAF. One could use just a subset of the SAF such as the @Actions, whereas to use the RCP one has to use all of it and learn all of it, not to mention convert existing applications over to it - a very major undertaking.

This is not the first time that the NB team has ignored the needs of its users. I sincerely hope that this decision is reversed. If need be, NB should adopt the SAF project to keep it going - after all many users only used SAF because it was promoted by NB.
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lvskiprof



Joined: 19 Jul 2011
Posts: 49
Location: Las Vegas, NV

PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:09 pm    Post subject: Re: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

Considering that anyone taking a Java class will be working in Swing (most likely), as I was last quarter at ITT, this means that Netbeans will not be a recommended platform for doing development. That translates directly into lost users of the platform.

This is a very bad decision.

Mike

Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
On 10/09/2011 06:59 PM, giorgio42 wrote:
Quote:
Hi,

I just installed NB 7.1 Beta, and tried to open one of our many Swing Application Framework-based applications, just to be greeted with a message, that this is not supported any longer in NetBeans 7.1 and I am supposed to stay on NetBeans 7.0.

A problem with that framework is that it was intended to be part of the
JDK, but it has always been nothing more than a JSR. It is always risky
to use a JSR for production code while it hasn't passed through the
review process to make it into the JDK. Now that it hasn't made it into
the JDK, it makes sense to drop support for it in the IDE.

Never mind, though, because there is a much more robust Swing
application framework out there, with many more features as well as much
more documentation:

http://netbeans.org/kb/trails/platform.html

Gj

Quote:
Which leaves me without the long awaited (at least 10 years or so...) import crunching and support for editing rectangular blocks.

Discontinuing support for existing frameworks has always been one of the hobbys the NetBeans team has always pursued with relentless passion over the years, much to the chagrin of their users. Sometimes it impacted them negatively in a really big way like abandoning support for UML and visual editing of web interfaces, or when trying to push Glassfish by stopping support for Tomcat, a decision, which some sane mind at Sun finally turned around again etc.).

Now the team is using yet another opportunity to annoy their user community.

Cheers,
Georg



Back to top
Fabrizio Giudici
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:30 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

On Wed, 30 Nov 2011 18:09:54 +0100, lvskiprof <address-removed> wrote:

Quote:
Considering that anyone taking a Java class will be working in Swing
(most likely), as I was last quarter at ITT, this means that Netbeans
will not be a recommended platform for doing development. That
translates directly into lost users of the platform.

This is a very bad decision.

As Geertjan said, SAF is not Swing. It's something built over Swing and it
has experienced a bad fate. I understand the annoyance of seeing stuff
deprecated. It's a matter of resources of course. Everybody would be happy
if Oracle supported everything.

NetBeans is open, so you can take over the SAF support and maintain it.
The Visage community (which took over JavaFXScript 1.0) did this and is
providing, AFAIK, a NetBeans Plugin based on the original JavaFX plugin.
If you can't find resources for that, perhaps it could mean that not so
many people are using SAF.

Personally, I'm continuously recommending people about moving from SAF to
the NetBeans Platform. Even for a small app, I've recently blogged at
DZone about that, as the overhead is of a few megabytes. My latest
consultancy about the Platform has been to help some people to port an
application from SAF to the Platform, and it has been done incrementally,
in a few weeks (including further developments of the app itself), and
without major problems.

Quote:

Mike


Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
Quote:
On 10/09/2011 06:59 PM, giorgio42 wrote:

Quote:
Hi,

I just installed NB 7.1 Beta, and tried to open one of our many Swing
Application Framework-based applications, just to be greeted with a
message, that this is not supported any longer in NetBeans 7.1 and I am
supposed to stay on NetBeans 7.0.

A problem with that framework is that it was intended to be part of the
JDK, but it has always been nothing more than a JSR. It is always risky
to use a JSR for production code while it hasn't passed through the
review process to make it into the JDK. Now that it hasn't made it into
the JDK, it makes sense to drop support for it in the IDE.

Never mind, though, because there is a much more robust Swing
application framework out there, with many more features as well as much
more documentation:

http://netbeans.org/kb/trails/platform.html

Gj



--
Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager
Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere."
address-removed
http://tidalwave.it - http://fabriziogiudici.it
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tkellerer



Joined: 15 Aug 2008
Posts: 544
Location: Bavaria

PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:02 pm    Post subject: Re: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

lvskiprof wrote:
Considering that anyone taking a Java class will be working in Swing (most likely), as I was last quarter at ITT, this means that Netbeans will not be a recommended platform for doing development. That translates directly into lost users of the platform.

This is a very bad decision.

NetBeans did NOT drop the support for Swing.
It dropped the support for one specific framework that builds on top of Swing.

The Swing Application Framework was never a really viable framework to begin with.
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Javier Ortiz
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:33 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

Again, NetBeans was not promoting it just supporting it as a prototype. Is not NetBeans dropping support, it won't be on the JDK. Is obvious you have not much experience with the platform, you don't have to use all of it and/or learn all of it. Is not different than when SAF was introduced, you had to learn it right?

Depending on how complex is your application that much you'll need to learn. After you know the basics is pretty straight forward.

Look here[1] for options for SAF

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swing_Application_Framework



Senior Software Quality Engineer
ArthroCare Corporation
7000 William Cannon Drive
Austin, TX 78735
Phone: 512-358-5996
email: address-removed

-----Original Message-----
From: rcasha [mailto:address-removed]
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 1:02 AM
To: address-removed
Subject: [nbusers] NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued


Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
Quote:
On 10/09/2011 06:59 PM, giorgio42 wrote:
A problem with that framework is that it was intended to be part of the
JDK, but it has always been nothing more than a JSR. It is always risky
to use a JSR for production code while it hasn't passed through the
review process to make it into the JDK. Now that it hasn't made it into
the JDK, it makes sense to drop support for it in the IDE.

Never mind, though, because there is a much more robust Swing
application framework out there, with many more features as well as much
more documentation:

http://netbeans.org/kb/trails/platform.html

Gj



The Netbeans platform is an utterly inadequate replacement for SAF. One could use just a subset of the SAF such as the @Actions, whereas to use the RCP one has to use all of it and learn all of it, not to mention convert existing applications over to it - a very major undertaking.

This is not the first time that the NB team has ignored the needs of its users. I sincerely hope that this decision is reversed. If need be, NB should adopt the SAF project to keep it going - after all many users only used SAF because it was promoted by NB.




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Geertjan Wielenga
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:06 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

On 11/30/2011 06:09 PM, lvskiprof wrote:
Quote:
Considering that anyone taking a Java class will be working in Swing (most likely), as I was last quarter at ITT, this means that Netbeans will not be a recommended platform for doing development. That translates directly into lost users of the platform.

Just to re-re-reiterate: NetBeans has NOT dropped support for Swing. It
is by far the best IDE to use for Swing development -- it has GUI
builders for all layout managers and a new one was recently introduced
for no other reason that to take away the pain of GridBagLayout.

And, of course, underneath NetBeans is the world's only modular Swing
application framework, which can be reused as hundreds, probably
thousands, have been doing for years and will continue to do:

http://platform.netbeans.org/screenshots.html

Gj

Quote:
This is a very bad decision.

Mike


Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
Quote:
On 10/09/2011 06:59 PM, giorgio42 wrote:

Quote:
Hi,

I just installed NB 7.1 Beta, and tried to open one of our many Swing Application Framework-based applications, just to be greeted with a message, that this is not supported any longer in NetBeans 7.1 and I am supposed to stay on NetBeans 7.0.

A problem with that framework is that it was intended to be part of the
JDK, but it has always been nothing more than a JSR. It is always risky
to use a JSR for production code while it hasn't passed through the
review process to make it into the JDK. Now that it hasn't made it into
the JDK, it makes sense to drop support for it in the IDE.

Never mind, though, because there is a much more robust Swing
application framework out there, with many more features as well as much
more documentation:

http://netbeans.org/kb/trails/platform.html

Gj


Quote:
Which leaves me without the long awaited (at least 10 years or so...) import crunching and support for editing rectangular blocks.

Discontinuing support for existing frameworks has always been one of the hobbys the NetBeans team has always pursued with relentless passion over the years, much to the chagrin of their users. Sometimes it impacted them negatively in a really big way like abandoning support for UML and visual editing of web interfaces, or when trying to push Glassfish by stopping support for Tomcat, a decision, which some sane mind at Sun finally turned around again etc.).

Now the team is using yet another opportunity to annoy their user community.

Cheers,
Georg







Back to top
Fabrizio Giudici
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:12 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

On Wed, 30 Nov 2011 08:01:40 +0100, rcasha <address-removed> wrote:

Quote:

Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
Quote:
On 10/09/2011 06:59 PM, giorgio42 wrote:
A problem with that framework is that it was intended to be part of the
JDK, but it has always been nothing more than a JSR. It is always risky
to use a JSR for production code while it hasn't passed through the
review process to make it into the JDK. Now that it hasn't made it into
the JDK, it makes sense to drop support for it in the IDE.

Never mind, though, because there is a much more robust Swing
application framework out there, with many more features as well as much
more documentation:

http://netbeans.org/kb/trails/platform.html

Gj



The Netbeans platform is an utterly inadequate replacement for SAF. One
could use just a subset of the SAF such as the @Actions, whereas to use
the RCP one has to use all of it and learn all of it, not to mention
convert existing applications over to it - a very major undertaking.

I seem to have said that the Platform can be used incrementally. I've also
pointed out a blog post with a demo application (for the lazy, the URL is
http://netbeans.dzone.com/nb-for-simple-apps). Before spreading FUD or
criticizing, at least one could check out things as they are and talk on
facts.

--
Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager
Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere."
address-removed
http://tidalwave.it - http://fabriziogiudici.it
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Geertjan Wielenga
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:18 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

Quote:

The Netbeans platform is an utterly inadequate replacement for SAF. One could use just a subset of the SAF such as the @Actions, whereas to use the RCP one has to use all of it and learn all of it,

Um, no, you don't.


Quote:
not to mention convert existing applications over to it - a very major undertaking.

There's no difference in converting to SAF versus converting to NetBeans
Platform, i.e., yes, a lot of converting and refactoring. The difference
is that at the end of the process, you get very little from SAF and a
lot from the NetBeans Platform.


Quote:
This is not the first time that the NB team has ignored the needs of its users. I sincerely hope that this decision is reversed. If need be, NB should adopt the SAF project to keep it going - after all many users only used SAF because it was promoted by NB.



Yes. Still, it makes sense to find out some facts about a framework
before using it. One important fact about SAF was that it was in the
process of trying to be accepted for inclusion in the JDK. It failed in
that regard and the momentum around it has dropped significantly.

I'd be very happy to help you convert your app to the NetBeans Platform,
you'd be surprised how little work is involved in that process and how
much your app will gain from it.

Gj
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Miller, David D
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:24 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

What is a good resource for helping me to port my application to Netbeans platform? I have thought about doing so but do not know where to start. Examples? Books? URLs?

________________________________________
From: Geertjan Wielenga [address-removed]
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 6:13 PM
To: address-removed
Subject: [nbusers] Re: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued

Quote:

The Netbeans platform is an utterly inadequate replacement for SAF. One could use just a subset of the SAF such as the @Actions, whereas to use the RCP one has to use all of it and learn all of it,

Um, no, you don't.


Quote:
not to mention convert existing applications over to it - a very major undertaking.

There's no difference in converting to SAF versus converting to NetBeans
Platform, i.e., yes, a lot of converting and refactoring. The difference
is that at the end of the process, you get very little from SAF and a
lot from the NetBeans Platform.


Quote:
This is not the first time that the NB team has ignored the needs of its users. I sincerely hope that this decision is reversed. If need be, NB should adopt the SAF project to keep it going - after all many users only used SAF because it was promoted by NB.



Yes. Still, it makes sense to find out some facts about a framework
before using it. One important fact about SAF was that it was in the
process of trying to be accepted for inclusion in the JDK. It failed in
that regard and the momentum around it has dropped significantly.

I'd be very happy to help you convert your app to the NetBeans Platform,
you'd be surprised how little work is involved in that process and how
much your app will gain from it.

Gj=
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Geertjan Wielenga
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:50 am    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

On 12/01/2011 12:17 AM, Miller, David D wrote:
Quote:
What is a good resource for helping me to port my application to Netbeans platform? I have thought about doing so but do not know where to start. Examples? Books? URLs?


Here is the Learning Trail:

http://netbeans.org/kb/trails/platform.html

On that page you'll find the NetBeans Platform Porting Tutorial:

http://platform.netbeans.org/tutorials/nbm-porting-basic.html

You can also take a NetBeans Platform course, which can include a
porting workshop, write directly to me for further info on this:

http://edu.netbeans.org/courses/nbplatform-certified-training/

Gj

Quote:
________________________________________
From: Geertjan Wielenga [address-removed]
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 6:13 PM
To: address-removed
Subject: [nbusers] Re: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued

Quote:
The Netbeans platform is an utterly inadequate replacement for SAF. One could use just a subset of the SAF such as the @Actions, whereas to use the RCP one has to use all of it and learn all of it,
Um, no, you don't.


Quote:
not to mention convert existing applications over to it - a very major undertaking.
There's no difference in converting to SAF versus converting to NetBeans
Platform, i.e., yes, a lot of converting and refactoring. The difference
is that at the end of the process, you get very little from SAF and a
lot from the NetBeans Platform.


Quote:
This is not the first time that the NB team has ignored the needs of its users. I sincerely hope that this decision is reversed. If need be, NB should adopt the SAF project to keep it going - after all many users only used SAF because it was promoted by NB.


Yes. Still, it makes sense to find out some facts about a framework
before using it. One important fact about SAF was that it was in the
process of trying to be accepted for inclusion in the JDK. It failed in
that regard and the momentum around it has dropped significantly.

I'd be very happy to help you convert your app to the NetBeans Platform,
you'd be surprised how little work is involved in that process and how
much your app will gain from it.

Gj
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Fabrizio Giudici
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:01 am    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

On Thu, 01 Dec 2011 09:29:02 +0100, Ramon Casha <address-removed> wrote:

Quote:
Actually I think that project proves my point. That's a LOT of extra
baggage to support the NB Platform.

Again, I'd like to see an enumeration of this extra stuff.

Quote:
In any case, how easy or difficult
would it be to convert hundreds of existing forms to use this
infrastructure?

Of course it depends on the context. What did you use, specific of SAF,
for the forms?

--
Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager
Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere."
address-removed
http://tidalwave.it - http://fabriziogiudici.it
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Geertjan Wielenga
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:05 am    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

On 12/01/2011 09:56 AM, Fabrizio Giudici wrote:
Quote:
On Thu, 01 Dec 2011 09:29:02 +0100, Ramon Casha <address-removed> wrote:

Quote:
Actually I think that project proves my point. That's a LOT of extra
baggage to support the NB Platform.

Again, I'd like to see an enumeration of this extra stuff.

Me too.

Quote:

Quote:
In any case, how easy or difficult
would it be to convert hundreds of existing forms to use this
infrastructure?

Of course it depends on the context. What did you use, specific of
SAF, for the forms?

You can simply copy and paste all your forms into a NetBeans Platform
application. Then create some new windows via a wizard in NetBeans IDE
and say "add(new myPanel())" inside any form in order to add it to your
window.

At the end of that, you have integrated your forms into a window system,
which is something that SAF doesn't have. For most serious applications
you need some kind of window system, so that the forms can be undocked
from the frame and moved around onto different monitors, so that they
can be resized and moved within the frame.

For no coding at all, you get that entire syste,.

Gj
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