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Why I'm going back to Eclipse
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gerry



Joined: 09 Jun 2009
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:29 am    Post subject: Why I'm going back to Eclipse Reply with quote

About a year ago I switched over to Netbeans to see if it was right for our team of PHP developers. I like netbeans a lot, nearly everything works better for PHP development by default when compared to PDT. However there is one feature I've always missed. I've got to the stage now where the time lost on a regular basis, due to the lack of one feature, justifies me taking the time to switch back to Eclipse and all the problems I will experience with doing so.

That feature is Mylyn. You really need to watch a screencast to see the benefits it provides.

This is a 1 minute demo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEyjpDrHCjc

You will probably get a greater understanding from this Google Tech talk on Mylyn, but it is a lot longer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P34eFGdswOU

Cubeon is a Netbeans plugin that attempts to provide similar functionality to Mylyn ( http://code.google.com/p/cubeon/wiki/GS_working_with_context ), but in it's current state it is not 1/10 as helpful at creating and using task contexts. The main problem is unlike Mylyn it doesn't alter contexts in the entire IDE and is instead restricted to it's own window, which if it was trying to be an alternative to Mylyn is missing the point. I'm not blaming the Cubon developers, they are doing good work and I'm guessing they need help from the core Netbeans developers in order to make their plugin work better. I'm just letting you guys know that it's not currently a workable alternative. If it was as useful it would have the same adoption as Mylyn does on Eclipse and would be integrated into Netbeans by default as Mylyn has been with Eclipse.

I really would love to come back to Netbeans in the future, so that's why I'm putting this post out there so people are aware of the missing functionality and hopefully to get people to realise how important this functionality is.

If you search in Google using "netbeans" and "mylyn" as keywords, you will see that I'm not the only one who believes a Mylyn alternative/integration is necessary to make Netbeans a better alternative to Eclipse:
http://www.google.com/search?q=netbeans+mylyn

I hope you all take this post in the spirit it is intended. I really like Netbeans and I think it is on track for being a much better alternative to Eclipse, I'm just trying to point out a key advantage that Eclipse has which I feel is currently being overlooked.

Thanks for all your great work so far.
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javydreamercsw



Joined: 22 Jun 2009
Posts: 457

PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:07 pm    Post subject: Why I'm going back to Eclipse Reply with quote

Can you provide a list of missing stuff to Cubeon? They'll probably want one. 

On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 3:30 AM, gerry <address-removed ([email]address-removed[/email])> wrote:
Quote:
About a year ago I switched over to Netbeans to see if it was right for our team of PHP developers. I like netbeans a lot, nearly everything works better for PHP development by default when compared to PDT. However there is one feature I've always missed. I've got to the stage now where the time lost on a regular basis, due to the lack of one feature, justifies me taking the time to switch back to Eclipse and all the problems I will experience with doing so.

That feature is Mylyn. You really need to watch a screencast to see the benefits it provides.

This is a 1 minute demo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEyjpDrHCjc

You will probably get a greater understanding from this Google Tech talk on Mylyn, but it is a lot longer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P34eFGdswOU

Cubeon is a Netbeans plugin that attempts to provide similar functionality to Mylyn ( http://code.google.com/p/cubeon/wiki/GS_working_with_context ), but in it's current state it is not 1/10 as helpful at creating and using task contexts. The main problem is unlike Mylyn it doesn't alter contexts in the entire IDE and is instead restricted to it's own window, which if it was trying to be an alternative to Mylyn is missing the point. I'm not blaming the Cubon, they are doing good work and I'm guessing they need help from the core Netbeans developers in order to make their plugin work better. I'm just letting you guys know that it's not currently a workable alternative. If it was as useful it would have the same adoption as Mylyn does on Eclipse and would be integrated into Netbeans by default as Mylyn has been with Eclipse.

I really would love to come back to Netbeans in the future, so that's why I'm putting this post out there so people are aware of the missing functionality and hopefully to get people to realise how important this functionality is.

If you search in Google using "netbeans" and "mylyn" as keywords, you will see that I'm not the only one who believes a Mylyn alternative/integration is necessary to make Netbeans a better alternative to Eclipse:
http://www.google.com/search?q=netbeans+mylyn

I hope you all take this post in the spirit it is intended. I really like Netbeans and I think it is on track for being a much better alternative to Eclipse, I'm just trying to point out a key advantage that Eclipse has which I feel is currently being overlooked.

Thanks for all your great work so far.




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gerry



Joined: 09 Jun 2009
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I'm saying is that all Netbeans users should be concerned that they don't have access to something as useful as Mylyn, because programming without it is so much harder. Without Mylyn I would think it would be hard for anybody to make the case for Netbeans over Eclipse and that's why this is more than just an issue for the Cubeon community. I can only assume the indifference to my post is based on ignorance of what Mylyn can do to aid development (not trying to be insulting). I think if people here had seen the videos above they would surely find themselves in the same position as me... wanting to use Netbeans, but needing to use Eclipse.
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javydreamercsw



Joined: 22 Jun 2009
Posts: 457

PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:44 pm    Post subject: Why I'm going back to Eclipse Reply with quote

Did you provide your difference notes to cubeon team as I suggested? They can't improve if they don't know about it.

You have your valid reasons. I did see the videos and they are quite interesting. For me there's nothing that can't be done on Netbeans. Probably not an all-in-one solution but workable for sure. The tasks are there already, so if I'm right the only thing you miss is the re-alignment of the IDE related to the task? Tasks plugin have links to the code, just double click and you are in the code you need to work into. Different? yes, Worst? No, just different.


Maybe I'm missing something but I still don't see a strong argument to dish Netbeans besides being used to Mylyn and not wanting to change that.

On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 5:28 AM, gerry <address-removed ([email]address-removed[/email])> wrote:
Quote:
What I'm saying is that all Netbeans users should be concerned that they don't have access to something as useful as Mylyn, because programming without it is so much harder. Without Mylyn I would think it would be hard for anybody to make the case for Netbeans over Eclipse and that's why this is more than just an issue for the Cubeon community. I can only assume the indifference to my post is based on ignorance of what Mylyn can do to aid development (not trying to be insulting). I think if people here had seen the videos above they would surely find themselves in the same position as me... wanting to use Netbeans, but needing to use Eclipse.




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gerry



Joined: 09 Jun 2009
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The main feature which makes Mylyn useful is that it creates task context automatically based on what you work on, you do not have to manually create it yourself. It's not about not wanting to change, it's that this is the whole reason people use Mylyn, instead of just a basic task tracker. It's like the difference between making backups and using a version control system. As with that example it's not a matter of making a feature request as it's a much more advanced tool and would require significant development resources for a very long time.

I think the only way this is going to happen is if people in the Netbeans community can see the value in such a thing and realise what they are missing. This however does not seem to be the current situation. That's ok, nothing is perfect, I just though I'd have a shot at introducing the Netbeans community to Mylyn. Clearly I'm alone in thinking that this is a necessity, so I'll be on my way.

Thanks for your input.

If there are any other Eclipse users out there who would rather use Netbeans if only it had Mylyn, then please live a message in this topic.
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tfmpoc



Joined: 07 Aug 2010
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mylyn is simply a better way to develop. It automatically keeps track of the context under which the code is being developed and optionally limits the view in the entire IDE to just that context. Very useful in getting thru the clutter. It also visually indicates which artifacts have been modified as opposed to merely viewed. One can add or remove artifacts from the context at will.

For most of my work with Mylyn a context was defined as the JIRA issue I was working on. It integrates with JIRA, listing your assigned issues. Pick one and start developing. Your context is initially empty but grows as you work. Mylyn watches over your shoulder, modifying the context as necessary. At any point in time (a very powerful feature) you can turn off the context-sensitive view to see the entire code base.

When you switch to another context (you can track as many contexts as you want) the entire IDE modifies itself to be in the state it was when last you worked on that context.

All done? Check the context into your repository (I've only used Subversion with Mylyn but I believe it doesn't care). Your check-in message contains the JIRA information. All items in the context are tagged with the info (if I recall correctly). You can, of course, check in a limited set of artifacts.

So, Mylyn takes over the entire IDE and shows you only what's important for the task at hand. I find this incredibly valuable and a real productivity boost. When other developers look at my IDE they are amazed at how clearly it shows what I'm doing. I have yet to see a Mylyn user go back to working without it.

I'm using NetBeans for my next project for several reasons (not the least being that I just want to familiarize myself with the thing) but would sure be happier with something like Mylyn in the picture. I'll give Cubeon a try and I wish them well.

Context-sensitive developing is developing the way you didn't know you were always wishing you could.
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tony.kay



Joined: 11 Aug 2010
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:38 am    Post subject: Another vote for context management Reply with quote

I am another user who uses Eclipse even though I like the coding environment of NetBeans better. The Mylyn feature is indispensable.

I have support enter a bug report into bugzilla. It appears in eclipse. I mark the bug as my "active task" (one mouse click).

My project has 1000's of files. As I open a file of interest, it is automatically added to the context of that task, and the files that aren't interesting are hidden (e.g. I only see the files I'm working on). This dramatically eases navigation, because I don't have to wade through the uninteresting crap...it isn't even shown. No opening trees/finding files/scrolling a navigator (unless I'm looking for something new to add to the context)

Now, say I get interrupted by an emergency fix, which is in another bugzilla ticket (happens daily, if not hourly).

I click once to activate that new issue as my task, and my workspace is cleared, and a new automatic task tracking is started.

When I finish with the emergency, I reactivate the earlier task, and all of my editors are reopened just where I left them, and all of my views (e.g. file lists) are populated with the things I've touched (and nothing else). This is a massive time saver. I reminds me of what I was doing without having to do any work whatsoever (no note writing, no TODO comments in the code). My "short term" memory of this task is saved by Mylyn.

When done fixing a bug, I attach the context to the bug itself (as an attachment), thus saving my "short-term" memory of what I did with the bug.

Three months later, someone finds a corner case I missed in that bug, and re-opens it. I (or one of my co-workers) imports the context and activates the task. The environment is immediately returned to exactly the state I left it when working on the bug (list of files changed, highlights on files where significant changes were made) etc. Making their job easier, because all of the searching/opening of files is already done.

Note that I get ALL of this power by clicking ONCE. I don't have to add TODO/FIXME and other crappy notes all over the code. I don't have to write long comments in the ticket about what I touched.

I make clear notes describing the overall patch, and the rest of the details are recorded as I work.

This is _clearly_ not something that Netbeans "does differently"....it simply doesn't do it. period.

That said, there are a lot of things NetBeans does better. A lot. But none of them have quite the globally clear advantage of this automated context management.
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mostlair



Joined: 26 Jun 2010
Posts: 71
Location: Argentina

PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The mylyn functionality is more than I need right now becouse of the small project I'm working in. But I've seen the videos gerry posted and I read a few tutorials since I read this thread and I really like the idea. I'd not change the IDE right now becouse of that but mylyn is in my "check that list" and I'll try it when I have some time, and considere using it if I work in a large project.

As I like the NB I'd like to see something like mylyn in the IDE.

Regards.-
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BM
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 3:05 am    Post subject: Why I'm going back to Eclipse Reply with quote

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 10:31 PM, mostlair <address-removed> wrote:
Quote:
As I like the NB I'd like to see something like mylyn in the IDE.

http://code.google.com/p/cubeon/

--
Kind regards, BM

Things, that are stupid at the beginning, rarely ends up wisely.
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nathangreen



Joined: 05 Oct 2010
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gerry wrote:
If there are any other Eclipse users out there who would rather use Netbeans if only it had Mylyn, then please live a message in this topic.


I'll throw in my vote! This type of functionality is almost non-negotiable. Btw, I love NetBeans.
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Javier.Ortiz
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 9:42 pm    Post subject: Why I'm going back to Eclipse Reply with quote

I think the closest available is Cubeon. http://code.google.com/p/cubeon/

Javier A. Ortiz Bultr
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Antonio Varela
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 12:02 am    Post subject: Why I'm going back to Eclipse Reply with quote

On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 2:39 PM, <address-removed> wrote:
Quote:

I think the closest available is Cubeon. http://code.google.com/p/cubeon/


Nice!

--
Antonio Varela
address-removed
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Javier.Ortiz
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:36 pm    Post subject: Why I'm going back to Eclipse Reply with quote

I haven't used Mylyn so I'm not aware of its features/usage, but from other users of Mylyn it seems that Cubeon is missing some features. That was some time ago. Please evaluate it and fill any feature requests so it can be even better than Mylyn!

Javier A. Ortiz Bultr
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ebresie



Joined: 01 Jul 2009
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:46 pm    Post subject: Mylyn Use Reply with quote

I am a heavy Mylyn user on the Eclipse side. So maybe another comment on this might help.

Netbeans has basic internal Task handling and Issue Tracking capabilities. Mylyn takes this a step further.

Mylyn allows me to create "Tasks". The tasks can be local or hosted on an issue tracker systems via connectors. The commercial connectors also allows connection to "Outlook" Tasks/Calendar and Gmail Calendars systems.

When you activate a task, Mylyn filters the contents for a given project to only display files and editors that are of use while working on the given task. If a file is now filtered, you have only to open it (disable filter temporarly, open the file) then it gets added to the files of interest.

For example, if you have a 1000 file project, you are tasked with a given bug task, which only required modifying 2 or 3 of these files, then rather than show all 1000 files in the project explorer (or file explore), it filters all other files except for those 2 or 3 files.

It can update the environment as well by re-opening (activating) specific views/perspectives as needed.

While having problems with issue tracking, I noticed some importing of mylyn packages seem to be creeping into the Issue Tracking modules of Netbeans so maybe some of this can be done a little easier by leveraging some of their capabilties.
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Javier.Ortiz
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 3:59 pm    Post subject: Why I'm going back to Eclipse Reply with quote

Did you gave Cubeon plugin a try? maybe you should!

Javier A. Ortiz Bultr
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