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NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued
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Fabrizio Giudici
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:56 am    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

On Mon, 19 Mar 2012 17:28:45 +0100, Ricardo Palomares Martínez
<address-removed> wrote:

Quote:
Sorry for this late answer, I'm late with my emails. :-)

I've browsed SolidBlue sources, which I think is your 7 MB NB
application. The ZIP with source code is 428 KBytes.

In contrast, the application I talk about is this:

http://kenai.com/projects/moztrans/downloads/directory/MT%20v5.26

whose source code ZIP is 1,4 MBytes, and the JAR is about 700 KBytes.
While the application (which I inherited, I'm not the original author)
is surely ugly and by no means has a modern look, I believe that it
has a broader feature set than SolidBlue (being completely different
purpose applications, of course). And I'm not questioning your coding
style, which I *know* it is far, far better than mine. Smile What I
stand is that the features define if the application is worth coding
it, not the resulting size of the JAR. If my application can do what
it does with a JAR under 1 MB, should I ditch it? Or should I add
things to it I don't need just to make it larger?

One basic reason is that SAF is discontinued. Not to be hilarious: the
point is simple. Assumed that 6MB less are better under some perspective,
but given that they refer to a dead product, I think that the question is
rather: given that I'm forced to move to the Platform (*), are those
additional 6MB a showstopper? If they are, then we have a major trouble.
If they aren't, we don't have a major trouble, but only the annoyance of
porting. Note that I've never dealt with the point of whether it is a good
or bad thing that SAF has been discontinued. It's just a fact and if I
have some software to deliver I think that the only important thing is to
react to this fact.

(*) Or something else, but I think that the size question remains even for
alternatives.



--
Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager
Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere."
address-removed
http://tidalwave.it - http://fabriziogiudici.it
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Geertjan Wielenga
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:10 am    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

Quote:
In my view SAF was removed solely because the main NB devs don't use it.

The tools for SAF were removed solely because SAF itself is no longer
being worked on, since 06 Jun, 2011, according to the JSR document:

http://jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=296

Gj


Quote:
They spend their days coding NB so they decide what is in it. I don't so I
apparently don't get a vote, but I've seen this type of thing on countless
open products. I understand that it was removed from what is 'Java', but
were the users of NB actually consulted first for its removal in NB? If so,
I missed it and I'm just an average user in that respect. In any case, I
don't make any of my devs use any specific dev tools and I'm the only on
that uses NB here anyway and that is solely because of jVi, so what do I
know?

By the by, If I get a vote, that vote is to remove it from NB because it
isn't part of 'Java' but mostly because I don't use it much either. :)

Jim T.
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rcasha



Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:39 am    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

What about beans binding? Could this suddenly disappear and all forms that use it get left high and dry too?
Ramon Casha


On 20 March 2012 09:51, Geertjan Wielenga <address-removed ([email]address-removed[/email])> wrote:
Quote:

Quote:
In my view SAF was removed solely because the main NB devs don't use it.

The tools for SAF were removed solely because SAF itself is no longer being worked on, since 06 Jun, 2011, according to the JSR document:

http://jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=296

Gj


Quote:
They spend their days coding NB so they decide what is in it.  I don't so I
apparently don't get a vote, but I've seen this type of thing on countless
open products.  I understand that it was removed from what is 'Java', but
were the users of NB actually consulted first for its removal in NB?  If so,
I missed it and I'm just an average user in that respect.  In any case, I
don't make any of my devs use any specific dev tools and I'm the only on
that uses NB here anyway and that is solely because of jVi, so what do I
know?

By the by, If I get a vote, that vote is to remove it from NB because it
isn't part of 'Java' but mostly because I don't use it much either. Smile

Jim T.


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Fabrizio Giudici
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:44 am    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

On Tue, 20 Mar 2012 10:20:34 +0100, Ramon Casha <address-removed> wrote:

Quote:
What about beans binding? Could this suddenly disappear and all forms
that
use it get left high and dry too?

Very good question (apart from the "suddenly": I must recall that the drop
of SAF support was announced).

--
Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager
Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere."
address-removed
http://tidalwave.it - http://fabriziogiudici.it
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Geertjan Wielenga
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:07 am    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

On 03/20/2012 10:24 AM, Fabrizio Giudici wrote:
Quote:
On Tue, 20 Mar 2012 10:20:34 +0100, Ramon Casha <address-removed> wrote:

Quote:
What about beans binding? Could this suddenly disappear and all forms
that
use it get left high and dry too?

Very good question (apart from the "suddenly": I must recall that the
drop of SAF support was announced).


Yes. And the same is true for anything else too. NetBeans IDE is a tools
provider for technologies. If a technology that it provides tools for no
longer exists, or is discontinued, or if one technology replaces another
technology, NetBeans IDE will not provide tools for it anymore. You're
not going to find tools for JAX-RCP web service development anymore, for
example, because JAX-RS is now the standard in the web service domain.
In the EJB world, CMP is no longer supported either, because that was
part of EJB 2, while we're now in the world of EJB 3. However, if anyone
still wants to use tools for CMP or JAX-RCP, they're welcome to work on
the NetBeans sources for those technologies, since NetBeans is an open
source project, and the Swing Application Framework is now in exactly
the same position too.

Gj
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Glenn Holmer
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:19 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

On Mon, 2012-03-19 at 16:37 -0400, Thomas Wolf wrote:
Quote:
On Mar 19, 2012, at 3:47 PM, Jim Thevenot wrote:
Quote:
This is the scary part, but I'm mostly IDE agnostic anyway so it isn't any
skin of my nose…

What does 'skin of my nose' mean?

"no skin off my nose", i.e. it doesn't matter to me

Quote:
Quote:
has a product that relies on a feature that was removed, they are sol.

What does 'sol' mean?

"s*** out of luck", i.e. nothing you can do about it

Quote:
Consider your audience - this is an international forum, after all,
and these idioms don't mean anything to a large segment of it Smile

--
____________________________________________________________
Glenn Holmer address-removed
Software Engineer phone: 414-908-1809
Weyco Group, Inc. fax: 414-908-1601
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Brenden Towey
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:38 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

Yup, JSR 295 is also listed on its main page as "withdrawn." Good catch.

http://jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=295

Anybody who depends on this JSR should be fleeing its ship right now.




On 3/20/2012 2:20 AM, Ramon Casha wrote:
Quote:
What about beans binding? Could this suddenly disappear and all forms
that use it get left high and dry too?

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Ricardo Palomares Martíne
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:40 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

El 20/03/12 01:37, Fabrizio Giudici escribió:
Quote:
On Mon, 19 Mar 2012 17:28:45 +0100, Ricardo Palomares Martínez
wrote:

Quote:
(...) What I
stand is that the features define if the application is worth coding
it, not the resulting size of the JAR. If my application can do what
it does with a JAR under 1 MB, should I ditch it? Or should I add
things to it I don't need just to make it larger?

One basic reason is that SAF is discontinued.


Not in this case, that application doesn't use SAF (it is way older
than SAF).


Quote:
Not to be hilarious: the
point is simple. Assumed that 6MB less are better under some
perspective, but given that they refer to a dead product, I think that
the question is rather: given that I'm forced to move to the Platform
(*), are those additional 6MB a showstopper? (...)

(*) Or something else, but I think that the size question remains even
for alternatives.


Humm... I think that the point is that, in most cases, there is no
such need to move to NB platform, Eclipse RCP or anything similar.
These solutions existed before SAF, so if they had been what the
developers were looking for, they would have choosen it in the first
place, not SAF.

IMHO, what made SAF appealing is that it was simple, promoted some
good practices in designing simple desktop applications (like i18n, a
common way of window status and other preferences save/restore, etc.)
and it was (going to be) an standard part of Java.

In fact, it was so simple that is likely than most of the features
that matter to us could be made to work with a project type that
provides some templates and prewritten classes for i18n, application
workflow and, perhaps, a minimal library with annotations for actions,
but this time without requiring the GUI builder specific awareness.

I have the feeling that some JSR Expert Groups look to provide
something so perfect that they throw it in the dust when they see some
marginal rough edges, but for the target audience those rough edges
would never be hit. I'm thinking of SAF, EoD [1] and, now that it has
been mentioned, Beans Binding.

Before the rough edges in SAF would have been hit by coders using it,
they would have switched to NB or Eclipse RCPs. Before the rough edges
in EoD would have been hit, the coders would have switched to
Hibernate, JPA or other solution. And, if Beans Binding was developed
to avoid boilerplate code (as described by its Spec Lead [2]), maybe
it should have existed since Java beginning, because boilerplate code
is not good at any level.


[1] http://johngoodson.sys-con.com/node/299947/mobile
[2] http://www.artima.com/lejava/articles/beans_binding.html

--
Ricardo Palomares (RickieES)
Diaspora: https://diasp.eu/u/rickiees
Skype: rickie0341971
Jabber: address-removed
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Fabrizio Giudici
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:47 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

On Tue, 20 Mar 2012 22:21:44 +0100, Ricardo Palomares Martínez
<address-removed> wrote:

Quote:
Quote:
One basic reason is that SAF is discontinued.


Not in this case, that application doesn't use SAF (it is way older
than SAF).

I misunderstood. So, if you're fine there's no need for migrating to the
Platform. But what's the point? We were discussing about SAF and my (and
others') point is that the Platform is a good replacement for SAF, we
didn't said that *any* Swing application must be necessarily done with the
Platform.



--
Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager
Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere."
address-removed
http://tidalwave.it - http://fabriziogiudici.it
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Moshe Matitya
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:49 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

The sudden lack of support in 7.1 for the Swing Application Framework (JSR 296) came as a shock and a major disappointment. My company has a number of large, important applications that are based on the SAF.

In previous versions, when using the Create Project wizard, if the user specified "Java Desktop Application", the application that NetBeans created was based upon the SAF, and there was no warning of any sort that (a) the application skeleton that had just been created by NetBeans was using a deprecated framework, or that (b) NetBeans would possibly drop support for it in the future.

It would be one thing if NetBeans wanted to change the application skeleton created by the Create Project wizard to one that uses a different framework. But it's something else entirely for applications that had been created by the wizard in previous versions of NetBeans to suddenly become uneditable and unrunnable in the current version!

We find the decision to suddenly rip out support for the SAF from NetBeans to be outrageous, and our confidence in NetBeans for the future has been shattered. Recoding our projects to use a different framework is not a practical option for us in the short term, so we are left stuck using NetBeans 7.0.1.

As regards our longer term plans: Unless NetBeans restores support for the SAF in its upcoming release, we will probably abandon NetBeans altogether, and switch to Eclipse's Windows Builder for our GUI applications.

Moshe Z. Matitya
Senior Developer
XConnect Global Networks, Ltd.
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Moshe Matitya
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 4:45 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

-----Original Message-----
From: Geertjan Wielenga [mailto:address-removed]
Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2012 5:29 PM
To: address-removed
Subject: [nbusers] Re: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued

Quote:
On 03/22/2012 02:23 PM, Moshe Matitya wrote:
Quote:
In previous versions, when using the Create Project wizard, if the user
specified "Java Desktop Application", the application that NetBeans
created was based upon the SAF, and there was no warning of any sort that
(a) the application skeleton that had just been created by NetBeans was
using a deprecated framework, or that (b) NetBeans would possibly drop
support for it in the future.

Quote:
Attached is a screenshot of the very first thing you would see when
using the above wizard in NetBeans IDE 7.0. I.e., what you saw was a
very big warning. You can continue to say "there was no warning of any
sort", but while you do so, just take a look at the attached screenshot.

In 7.0? That's very nice. I've attached a copy of the warning that was displayed by the Create Project wizard in 6.9 -- the latest version until less than a year ago.

Oh, sorry -- do you not see the attachment? That's because there WAS NO SUCH WARNING in 6.9. Clearly, prior to 7.0, NetBeans saw absolutely nothing wrong with using the SAF as the basis for their DEFAULT DESKTOP APP, without providing any sort of warning -- not only that it might suddenly stop working in future versions of NetBeans, but even mentioning that the NetBeans-generated app uses the SAF!

Futhermore: Why don't you take a look at what the so-called "warning" in 7.0 actually says? To quote it:

"Note that JSR-296 (Swing Application Framework) is no longer developed and will not become part of the official Java Development Kit as was originally planned."

All this means is that the SAF will not be incorporated into the JDK. But this is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to the question of whether it's OK to use it in an app!

The fact that some given library is not part of the JDK doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with it. Let's say that one of the NetBeans project wizard were to create a default skeleton application that depended upon Apache Commons, with dependent editing features that were bound into the IDE. There would certainly be nothing wrong with that (as long as NB distributed the necessary Apache Commons jars, of course.)

Imagine, then, that in a subsequent release, NB were to suddenly abandon support for the above, such that applications created by the wizard could no longer even be opened in the IDE!

Would the fact that "Apache Commons is not part of the JDK" excuse this? Of course not. If a NetBeans project wizard creates an app that depends upon Apache Commons, with no warnings of any sort that support may be dropped in a future release, then to suddenly drop support would be a Very Bad Thing. Nobody ever expected Apache Commons to be part of the JDK, and the fact that is isn't is immaterial.

This is EXACTLY the case with NetBeans' ripping out of support for the SAF. The notion that "you should have known better, because JSR 296 might not be accepted" is ridiculous. If the NB IDE created an app using a given library, without warnings, it ought to continue supporting it in subsequent versions. Who cares whether that library is part of the JDK or not??

But wait, it gets even worse: Let's continue reading the text or what you call the "warning" in 7.0:

"You can still use the Swing Application Framework library as it is, but no further development is expected."

What is the meaning, pray tell, of the statement, "You can still use the Swing Application Framework library as it is"? To any reasonable person (other than a lawyer, perhaps), this means that it will continue to work in NetBeans. If there was even a chance that it would STOP working in NetBeans, do you think they should have said, "You can still use [it] as it is"?! To the contrary, the statement should then have said the EXACT OPPOSITE: "You may soon no longer be able to still use the Swing Application Framework library".

But that is NOT what they said.

The very message that you are citing, and that you attached to your post, demonstrates the PRECISE OPPOSITE of what you claim: As recently as 7.0, NetBeans was explicitly assuring users that they "can still use the Swing Application Framework library as it is"!

And then, in the next release -- without warning -- they suddenly couldn't.

Moshe
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Fabrizio Giudici
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:08 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

On Thu, 22 Mar 2012 17:26:25 +0100, Moshe Matitya
<address-removed> wrote:


Quote:
In 7.0? That's very nice. I've attached a copy of the warning that was
displayed by the Create Project wizard in 6.9 -- the latest version
until less than a year ago.

Oh, sorry -- do you not see the attachment? That's because there WAS NO
SUCH WARNING in 6.9.

This means that the warning was one major release before the removal. To
me this is consistent, even though the community could ask for a
guaranteed support of two major releases after the warning.

Quote:

Futhermore: Why don't you take a look at what the so-called "warning"
in 7.0 actually says? To quote it:

"Note that JSR-296 (Swing Application Framework) is no longer developed
and will not become part of the official Java Development Kit as was
originally planned."

C'mon, this is only the beginning. In fact, after a few paragraphs, you
say:

Quote:
But wait, it gets even worse: Let's continue reading the text or what
you call the "warning" in 7.0:

"You can still use the Swing Application Framework library as it is, but
no further development is expected."

This is not *even worse* if not in your presentation of things. Indeed
it's pretty clear the logical completion of the message.

Quote:

What is the meaning, pray tell, of the statement, "You can still use the
Swing Application Framework library as it is"? To any reasonable person
(other than a lawyer, perhaps), this means that it will continue to work
in NetBeans. If there was even a chance that it would STOP working in
NetBeans, do you think they should have said, "You can still use [it] as
it is"?! To the contrary, the statement should then have said the EXACT
OPPOSITE: "You may soon no longer be able to still use the Swing
Application Framework library".

But that is NOT what they said.

To me it appears pretty clear. Maybe it's a language barrier, but you're
not correctly interpreting plain english. "As it is" together with "no
further development" is unequivocally the bell of death, even though it's
not telling the date. In any case 7.0 was released in April 2011 and 7.1
in January 2012. They are nine months (eight and one half to be precise).
At the very least, one doubt should have arisen and you could have asked
here. Did you? What answer did you get?


--
Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager
Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere."
address-removed
http://tidalwave.it - http://fabriziogiudici.it
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Jim Thevenot
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:08 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

I read the warning differently that you do.

"You can still use the Swing Application Framework library as it is, but no
further development is expected" != "I'm going to pull it without warning."

In fact the above statement is a direct contraction to your actions. "You
can still use" tells people that it is ok to use it 'as is'. So you
explicitly told them that they could use it and then pulled the rug out from
under their feet.

At this point, I think you need to immediately pull BB and anything else
that doesn't fit your current view of NB. Pick a vision for your product
and stick with it. Better to just rip the band-aid off rather than a slow
painful peeling. That way, old users will know what you want NB to be and
new users will be getting what they see when they show up.

-----Original Message-----
From: Geertjan Wielenga [mailto:address-removed]
Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2012 8:29 AM
To: address-removed
Subject: [nbusers] Re: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued

On 03/22/2012 02:23 PM, Moshe Matitya wrote:
Quote:
The sudden lack of support in 7.1 for the Swing Application Framework (JSR
296) came as a shock and a major disappointment. My company has a number of
large, important applications that are based on the SAF.
Quote:

In previous versions, when using the Create Project wizard, if the user
specified "Java Desktop Application", the application that NetBeans created
was based upon the SAF, and there was no warning of any sort that (a) the
application skeleton that had just been created by NetBeans was using a
deprecated framework, or that (b) NetBeans would possibly drop support for
it in the future.

Attached is a screenshot of the very first thing you would see when
using the above wizard in NetBeans IDE 7.0. I.e., what you saw was a
very big warning. You can continue to say "there was no warning of any
sort", but while you do so, just take a look at the attached screenshot.

Gj

Quote:
It would be one thing if NetBeans wanted to change the application
skeleton created by the Create Project wizard to one that uses a different
framework. But it's something else entirely for applications that had been
created by the wizard in previous versions of NetBeans to suddenly become
uneditable and unrunnable in the current version!
Quote:

We find the decision to suddenly rip out support for the SAF from NetBeans
to be outrageous, and our confidence in NetBeans for the future has been
shattered. Recoding our projects to use a different framework is not a
practical option for us in the short term, so we are left stuck using
NetBeans 7.0.1.
Quote:

As regards our longer term plans: Unless NetBeans restores support for
the SAF in its upcoming release, we will probably abandon NetBeans
altogether, and switch to Eclipse's Windows Builder for our GUI
applications.
Quote:

Moshe Z. Matitya
Senior Developer
XConnect Global Networks, Ltd.
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Moshe Matitya
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:37 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

-----Original Message-----
From: Fabrizio Giudici [mailto:address-removed]
Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2012 6:49 PM
To: address-removed; Moshe Matitya
Subject: Re: [nbusers] Re: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued

On Thu, 22 Mar 2012 17:26:25 +0100, Moshe Matitya
<address-removed> wrote:
<> What is the meaning, pray tell, of the statement, "You can still use the
< > Swing Application Framework library as it is"? To any reasonable person
<> (other than a lawyer, perhaps), this means that it will continue to work < in NetBeans. If there was even a chance that it would STOP working in
Quote:
NetBeans, do you think they should have said, "You can still use [it] as
it is"?! To the contrary, the statement should then have said the EXACT
OPPOSITE: "You may soon no longer be able to still use the Swing
Application Framework library".

But that is NOT what they said.

Quote:
To me it appears pretty clear. Maybe it's a language barrier, but you're
not correctly interpreting plain english. "As it is" together with "no
further development" is unequivocally the bell of death, even though it's
not telling the date.

I can assure you that English is my mother tongue, and I have never had trouble with reading comprehension.

As you can see by perusing this thread and the one in the NB bug DB (where one user even attachment a copy of that very statement in order to demonstrate the exact OPPOSITE of what you are saying!), I am far from the only user who understood the meaning of the statement this way.

But in the end, all this is secondary. Even if that so-called "warning" DID mean what you claim, it doesn't change the fact that NB showed callous disregard for their user base, and is actively driving a significant portion of them away.

Moshe
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Chuck Linsley
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:04 pm    Post subject: NetBeans 7.1 Swing Application Support discontinued Reply with quote

On 3/22/2012 9:49 AM, Fabrizio Giudici wrote:
Quote:
On Thu, 22 Mar 2012 17:26:25 +0100, Moshe Matitya
<address-removed> wrote:
Quote:
"Note that JSR-296 (Swing Application Framework) is no longer
developed and will not become part of the official Java Development
Kit as was originally planned."

Quote:
"You can still use the Swing Application Framework library as it is,
but no further development is expected."
To me it appears pretty clear. Maybe it's a language barrier, but
you're not correctly interpreting plain english. "As it is" together
with "no further development" is unequivocally the bell of death, even
though it's not telling the date. In any case 7.0 was released in
April 2011 and 7.1 in January 2012. They are nine months (eight and
one half to be precise). At the very least, one doubt should have
arisen and you could have asked here. Did you? What answer did you get?

To me it appears pretty clear:

You should not use this for new projects, but existing projects will
continue to work, as long as you don't need bug fixes for the
framework... maybe not forever, but for a reasonable length of time.

One may quibble about the definition of "a reasonable length of time,"
but I would submit that 8 1/2 months falls short of my expectations. A
large project could take longer than that to rewrite. What? You have
actual development to do, adding features that customers will pay for?
Too bad.

One might also quibble about the definition of "continue to work." I
would interpret (and I think many others would, too, in this context)
"You can still use" as meaning not only that the application will
continue to run, but that you can continue to develop the application.

There was no warning that upgrading from 7.0 to 7.1 would break
projects, that if you created your project using the default Java
Desktop Application wizard in 6.9, you cannot upgrade to 7.1.

I would expect such an important feature to be changed only in a major
revision. A major revision is, for example, 7.x to 8.x; 7.0 to 7.1 is a
minor revision. Major.minor.patch. Minor revisions add enhancements, but
do not break backward compatibility. If it breaks backward
compatibility, it is, by definition, a major revision. It should have
been implemented in version 8. If, for some reason, it absolutely had to
be removed in 7.1, there should have been some clear warning for people
not to upgrade if they were using SAF.

Finally, one saw that understated and misleading(*) warning only when
starting a new project. If one was maintaining or developing an existing
project, one received no warning at all.

* If a significant number number of people are misled by a statement,
the statement is misleading, even if it was not intentionally misleading
and others understood it correctly. It is apparent from the number of
people complaining here that was in fact misleading.

Charles E. Linsley
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