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Status or future of Woodstock in Netbeans

 
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roberthook



Joined: 14 Oct 2008
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:52 am    Post subject: Status or future of Woodstock in Netbeans Reply with quote

I am fairly certain that at least some of the responses I will receive to the following will be "ask in the right forums", but as you will read, asking in the right forums is like shouting into an empty bucket.

Can anyone tell me, and others, what the future - long, short and immediate - for Project Woodstock is in Netbeans? As it stands at the moment, you can see that people are crying out in the forums

https://woodstock.dev.java.net/servlets/ForumMessageList?forumID=2879

and in the mailing list

https://woodstock.dev.java.net/servlets/BrowseList?listName=users&by=date&from=2008-10-01&to=2008-10-31&first=1&count=57

asking the same thing, with zero response.

I have made the possibly fatal mistake of committing a large project to using Netbeans, Visual JSF, and Woodstock, and after considerable work, when I hit a bug, have found that there is zero support available anywhere.

That takes me to a meta-gripe, which I'm hoping someone can actually throw some light on. The netbeans wiki (http://wiki.netbeans.org/FaqChat) advises several chat forums. I've been crying into those forums for several weeks, and have never received any answer - if they are not in some wise an 'official' channel, could the wiki be updated to reflect the *real* place to direct questions like this?

I really, really want Netbeans to be successful, it is far and away the best IDE for java development I've used, but if this continued complete inability to find any meaningful support continues, I'm going to have to re-evaluate and probably take my dev team back to a commercial product.
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Andreas Hesse
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 7:48 am    Post subject: Status or future of Woodstock in Netbeans Reply with quote

Hi Robert,

Quote:
I have made the possibly fatal mistake of committing a large project to using Netbeans, Visual JSF, and Woodstock,
and after considerable work, when I hit a bug, have found that there is zero support available anywhere.

Same here - I can already here customers (and CEO's) blaming the 'stupid techis' which decided to use an unfished framework.

I thought - with Sun is in the background - the Woodstock stuff would be continously be supported / pushed /
developed... What a dewy-eyed, stupid and now really expensive thought :(

I'm not sure what todo atm. Still waiting for some kind of official statement for nearly two month now (s.
http://www.nabble.com/VWP-and-Woodstock-tp19264716p19264716.html ) But Sun doesnt need to react. I'm so peeved about
that, that i start advising people better to not use Sun stuff at all.

Btu wtf.. All that yelling won't help. Probably we'll take the sources and continue to developed WS-Compos on our own,
giving the open source thought a shot.

This wont help at all i know. It's just frustrating.

Andreas



Robert Hook schrieb:
Quote:
I am fairly certain that at least some of the responses I will receive to the following will be "ask in the right forums", but as you will read, asking in the right forums is like shouting into an empty bucket.

Can anyone tell me, and others, what the future - long, short and immediate - for Project Woodstock is in Netbeans? As it stands at the moment, you can see that people are crying out in the forums

https://woodstock.dev.java.net/servlets/ForumMessageList?forumID=2879

and in the mailing list

https://woodstock.dev.java.net/servlets/BrowseList?listName=users&by=date&from=2008-10-01&to=2008-10-31&first=1&count=57

asking the same thing, with zero response.

I have made the possibly fatal mistake of committing a large project to using Netbeans, Visual JSF, and Woodstock, and after considerable work, when I hit a bug, have found that there is zero support available anywhere.

That takes me to a meta-gripe, which I'm hoping someone can actually throw some light on. The netbeans wiki (http://wiki.netbeans.org/FaqChat) advises several chat forums. I've been crying into those forums for several weeks, and have never received any answer - if they are not in some wise an 'official' channel, could the wiki be updated to reflect the *real* place to direct questions like this?

I really, really want Netbeans to be successful, it is far and away the best IDE for java development I've used, but if this continued complete inability to find any meaningful support continues, I'm going to have to re-evaluate and probably take my dev team back to a commercial product.
Back to top
rdelaplante



Joined: 23 Oct 2008
Posts: 50
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:26 am    Post subject: Status or future of Woodstock in Netbeans Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:

I have made the possibly fatal mistake of committing a large project
to using Netbeans, Visual JSF, and Woodstock, and after considerable
work, when I hit a bug, have found that there is zero support
available anywhere.
I had been using Visual Web since NB 5.5 and am currently in the process
of changing the app to use Facelets. I found Visual Web was very
restrictive in many ways. I could probably list 5-10 issues I had
because I wanted to create a UI that renders different templates
depending on if the user is on a desktop or PDA. The restrictions were
so serious that I had to duplicate a lot of the web tier in a separate
visual web project and use different package names since both .war files
live in the same .ear. Once I realized these restrictions were from
Visual Web instead of JSF and after I created a proof of concept using
Facelets, I began the switchover.


I think Visual Web will be ripped apart and rewritten in the future.
Facelets is now built into JSF 2.0 and is the default view technology.
The Visual Web designer can only do JSPs. Visual Web imposes all kinds
of design restrictions that developers have complained about for
years. And finally Visual Web can be described as an improperly
rendered visual preview with support for drag/drop of JSF components,
that imposes certain design decisions on your applications. There are
plans to create a new visual editor with helpful inspection tools like
in Firebug, proper rendering, and that can be used for web app
development in all languages, all frameworks:

http://blogs.sun.com/winston/entry/web_page_designer_for_netbeans

I think when they do that they will be ahead of all Java IDEs. I'm
pretty sure this is what they will be working on for JSF 2.0 support am
am really looking forward to it.

Woodstock is only one piece of the puzzle. It is a component suite like
RichFaces, IceFaces, etc. In JSF you can swap it out for another
component suite, although it will be a lot of work. Especially if
you're using pre-NetBeans 6.5 bind every single tag to backing beans.


Quote:
Quote:
I really, really want Netbeans to be successful, it is far and away
the best IDE for java development I've used, but if this continued
complete inability to find any meaningful support continues, I'm
going to have to re-evaluate and probably take my dev team back to a
commercial product.
NetBeans is a commercial IDE if you want to pay for it:

http://www.netbeans.org/kb/support.html#prof_support

We had a support contract for one year and when I had problems they
immediately put me in touch with the engineers that have the answers.
In one case the engineers VNC'd into my computer for two hours to
diagnose and solve IDE bugs. I was impressed by and satisfied with the
support I received for $250/year.


Ryan
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rdelaplante



Joined: 23 Oct 2008
Posts: 50
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:38 am    Post subject: Status or future of Woodstock in Netbeans Reply with quote

Quote:
There are plans to create a new visual editor with helpful
inspection tools like in Firebug, proper rendering, and that can be
used for web app development in all languages, all frameworks:

http://blogs.sun.com/winston/entry/web_page_designer_for_netbeans

I just found out that the engineer who designed this left Sun in
September to work on a competing product with these very ideas!

http://blogs.sun.com/winston/entry/my_last_blog_as_a

Crap. The bottom of the following wiki page links to a number of
proposals for the next generation visual web designer:

http://wiki.netbeans.org/VisualWeb

It would be great if Sun could shed some light on the future roadmap of
Visual Web. I wonder if we need to start lobbying them?


Ryan
Back to top
HBurde@t-online.de
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:02 pm    Post subject: Status or future of Woodstock in Netbeans Reply with quote

Hi;

I completed several (small 2 medium) projects using woodstock over the
last month. If woodstock is discontinued for whatever reason i consider
using something other than netbeans in the future.

Netbeans became a real cool IDE in the last 1 1/2 years - but without
adhering to the usual business rules its pretty useless and to dangerous
to work with ...

PS I still hope this is 'only' a transition problem (slow down ; borken
communication; ..) after the project leader of the
'Creator' left SUN.

hb


-----Original Message-----
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 10:38:18 +0100
Subject: Re: [nbusers] Status or future of Woodstock in Netbeans
From: Ryan de Laplante <address-removed>
To: address-removed


Quote:
There are plans to create a new visual editor with helpful
inspection tools like in Firebug, proper rendering, and that can be
used for web app development in all languages, all frameworks:

http://blogs.sun.com/winston/entry/web_page_designer_for_netbeans

I just found out that the engineer who designed this left Sun in
September to work on a competing product with these very ideas!

http://blogs.sun.com/winston/entry/my_last_blog_as_a

Crap. The bottom of the following wiki page links to a number of
proposals for the next generation visual web designer:

http://wiki.netbeans.org/VisualWeb

It would be great if Sun could shed some light on the future roadmap of
Visual Web. I wonder if we need to start lobbying them?


Ryan
Back to top
Glenn Holmer
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:11 pm    Post subject: Status or future of Woodstock in Netbeans Reply with quote

On Wed, 2008-10-29 at 05:26 -0400, Ryan de Laplante wrote:

Quote:
I think Visual Web will be ripped apart and rewritten in the future.

That's the same impression I got when talking to some of the NetBeans
developers at JavaOne earlier this year. I was left with the feeling
that it was a prototype that someone looked at and liked so much they
had it promoted without enough forethought.

It's a shame, really: a good visual web product could change everything
and make NetBeans the true "killer app" of web programming. Imagine if
that sort of thing would work across all the different languages
NetBeans supports. Imagine if you could use any JSF component set
instead of just Woodstock (ICEfaces has some support for it now, but I
don't think that's been fun for them). Imagine if it was well
integrated with the whole EJB/JPA framework. Most of all, imagine if it
was more flexible and didn't make you do things its way.

I'm imagining, but in the mean time we've started writing apps using
Facelets, ICEfaces (without the NetBeans plugin), and EJB, and we're
still very happy :)

--
____________________________________________________________
Glenn Holmer address-removed
Software Engineer phone: 414-908-1809
Weyco Group, Inc. fax: 414-908-1601
Back to top
Rick Fincher
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 6:54 pm    Post subject: Status or future of Woodstock in Netbeans Reply with quote

Hi Guys,

Has anybody brought this up with Sun's paid tech support service? Any
lck there?

Rick


Andreas Hesse wrote:
Quote:
Hi Robert,

Quote:
I have made the possibly fatal mistake of committing a large project
to using Netbeans, Visual JSF, and Woodstock, and after considerable
work, when I hit a bug, have found that there is zero support
available anywhere.

Same here - I can already here customers (and CEO's) blaming the
'stupid techis' which decided to use an unfished framework.

I thought - with Sun is in the background - the Woodstock stuff would
be continously be supported / pushed / developed... What a dewy-eyed,
stupid and now really expensive thought :(

I'm not sure what todo atm. Still waiting for some kind of official
statement for nearly two month now (s.
http://www.nabble.com/VWP-and-Woodstock-tp19264716p19264716.html ) But
Sun doesnt need to react. I'm so peeved about that, that i start
advising people better to not use Sun stuff at all.

Btu wtf.. All that yelling won't help. Probably we'll take the sources
and continue to developed WS-Compos on our own, giving the open source
thought a shot.

This wont help at all i know. It's just frustrating.

Andreas



Robert Hook schrieb:
Quote:
I am fairly certain that at least some of the responses I will
receive to the following will be "ask in the right forums", but as
you will read, asking in the right forums is like shouting into an
empty bucket.

Can anyone tell me, and others, what the future - long, short and
immediate - for Project Woodstock is in Netbeans? As it stands at the
moment, you can see that people are crying out in the forums

https://woodstock.dev.java.net/servlets/ForumMessageList?forumID=2879

and in the mailing list

https://woodstock.dev.java.net/servlets/BrowseList?listName=users&by=date&from=2008-10-01&to=2008-10-31&first=1&count=57


asking the same thing, with zero response.

I have made the possibly fatal mistake of committing a large project
to using Netbeans, Visual JSF, and Woodstock, and after considerable
work, when I hit a bug, have found that there is zero support
available anywhere.

That takes me to a meta-gripe, which I'm hoping someone can actually
throw some light on. The netbeans wiki
(http://wiki.netbeans.org/FaqChat) advises several chat forums. I've
been crying into those forums for several weeks, and have never
received any answer - if they are not in some wise an 'official'
channel, could the wiki be updated to reflect the *real* place to
direct questions like this?

I really, really want Netbeans to be successful, it is far and away
the best IDE for java development I've used, but if this continued
complete inability to find any meaningful support continues, I'm
going to have to re-evaluate and probably take my dev team back to a
commercial product.
Back to top
roberthook



Joined: 14 Oct 2008
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:22 pm    Post subject: Status or future of Woodstock in Netbeans Reply with quote

I have not yet pursued that route as my company is not (currently)
using sun's paid tech support. While I am not expecting a free ride
from the community or Sun, it does become unnerving if the only way to
get information like this is to buy it - sort of goes against the
'open' rhetoric.

I will also reiterate that I still have the option and oppurtunity to
resolve my base problem - misbehaviour of a control - by obtaining the
source and fixing it. However I will have a hard time justifying that
expense if I cannot even find out if it's a known problem that is
already being worked on.



On 30/10/2008, at 4:54 AM, Rick Fincher <address-removed> wrote:

Quote:
Hi Guys,

Has anybody brought this up with Sun's paid tech support service?
Quote:










Quote:








Back to top
rdelaplante



Joined: 23 Oct 2008
Posts: 50
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:56 pm    Post subject: Status or future of Woodstock in Netbeans Reply with quote

Robert Hook wrote:
Quote:
However I will have a hard time justifying that expense if I cannot
even find out if it's a known problem that is already being worked on.

Sure you can... :)

https://woodstock.dev.java.net/issues/query.cgi
Back to top
Mark Dey
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 1:04 am    Post subject: Status or future of Woodstock in Netbeans Reply with quote

Dear Woodstock users,

On behalf of the teams involved, I apologize for the lack of
communication about about the future of Woodstock. The project teams
are struggling with the rather sudden reassignment of the contributing
members and are researching alternatives that can help fill the gap in
some way.

The NetBeans level of contribution to future releases of Woodstock has
been suspended. The current version of Woodstock shipping as part of
VisualWeb in NetBeans 6.5 is version 4.2 and will continue to be
supported as it has in prior releases.

Woodstock as a java.net open source project is still active to the
extent that community members are willing and able to contribute to
the further development and support of the technology.

There will undoubtedly be a transition period as we roll out the next
generation of tools for JSF and UI components for the web. A top
priority is minimizing the impact to those who are invested in the
current technology.

On behalf of the NetBeans team, thank you for your understanding and
your continued interest in NetBeans.

- Mark Dey

NetBeans VisualWeb Team




On Oct 28, 2008, at 9:51 PM, Robert Hook wrote:

Quote:
I am fairly certain that at least some of the responses I will
receive to the following will be "ask in the right forums", but as
you will read, asking in the right forums is like shouting into an
empty bucket.

Can anyone tell me, and others, what the future - long, short and
immediate - for Project Woodstock is in Netbeans? As it stands at
the moment, you can see that people are crying out in the forums

https://woodstock.dev.java.net/servlets/ForumMessageList?forumID=2879

and in the mailing list

https://woodstock.dev.java.net/servlets/BrowseList?listName=users&by=date&from=2008-10-01&to=2008-10-31&first=1&count=57

asking the same thing, with zero response.

I have made the possibly fatal mistake of committing a large project
to using Netbeans, Visual JSF, and Woodstock, and after considerable
work, when I hit a bug, have found that there is zero support
available anywhere.

That takes me to a meta-gripe, which I'm hoping someone can actually
throw some light on. The netbeans wiki (http://wiki.netbeans.org/FaqChat
) advises several chat forums. I've been crying into those forums
for several weeks, and have never received any answer - if they are
not in some wise an 'official' channel, could the wiki be updated to
reflect the *real* place to direct questions like this?

I really, really want Netbeans to be successful, it is far and away
the best IDE for java development I've used, but if this continued
complete inability to find any meaningful support continues, I'm
going to have to re-evaluate and probably take my dev team back to a
commercial product.
Back to top
Rick Fincher
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 3:16 am    Post subject: Status or future of Woodstock in Netbeans Reply with quote

Hi Mark,

Hopefully, the next generation will be worth the turmoil. One HUGE way
of helping the transition: Allow old pages to be used in new projects.
If we can keep our old pages and add new pages using the new technology
to the project, that would be great.

As a developer the biggest problem I have is revolutionary change vs
incremental updates. I don't have the time or budget to completely port
an existing web app to an all new technology. But if I can add new pages
with the new Gee-Whiz features while still using pages I already have, I
can transition to the new stuff while keeping a site in production.

You have to understand that for those of us doing real world apps,
projects rarely end. They are constantly being modified or extended,
even while in production.

The boss or the customer doesn't really know or care what the underlying
technology is, as long as it works. They don't understand why you
should have to go to the expense of messing with old pages that work
fine in order to add new ones, or to add new features.

If I have to do a time consuming (expensive) port of my web apps every
time Netbeans updates, then Netbeans becomes impossibly expensive to
use, in both time and money, even if it is free.

It shouldn't be all that hard to do this. Just put something in the new
pages and the framework that directs old pages to an old style engine,
and processes new pages with the new engine. If there is a way for the
new pages to get session bean data, I can make them work together.

In the end, they are all HTML pages, so it is silly for them to be
unable to work together.

Either that, or a really good converter that converts old projects to
the new format. I think that will be almost impossible, though, because
we have had to do a lot of custom stuff, including Javascript, to work
around the limitations of the current technology. I don't see how a
converter can take all that into account.

Thanks,

Rick

Mark Dey wrote:
Quote:
Dear Woodstock users,

On behalf of the teams involved, I apologize for the lack of
communication about about the future of Woodstock. The project teams
are struggling with the rather sudden reassignment of the contributing
members and are researching alternatives that can help fill the gap in
some way.

The NetBeans level of contribution to future releases of Woodstock has
been suspended. The current version of Woodstock shipping as part of
VisualWeb in NetBeans 6.5 is version 4.2 and will continue to be
supported as it has in prior releases.

Woodstock as a java.net open source project is still active to the
extent that community members are willing and able to contribute to
the further development and support of the technology.

There will undoubtedly be a transition period as we roll out the next
generation of tools for JSF and UI components for the web. A top
priority is minimizing the impact to those who are invested in the
current technology.

On behalf of the NetBeans team, thank you for your understanding and
your continued interest in NetBeans.

- Mark Dey

NetBeans VisualWeb Team




On Oct 28, 2008, at 9:51 PM, Robert Hook wrote:

Quote:
I am fairly certain that at least some of the responses I will
receive to the following will be "ask in the right forums", but as
you will read, asking in the right forums is like shouting into an
empty bucket.

Can anyone tell me, and others, what the future - long, short and
immediate - for Project Woodstock is in Netbeans? As it stands at the
moment, you can see that people are crying out in the forums

https://woodstock.dev.java.net/servlets/ForumMessageList?forumID=2879

and in the mailing list

https://woodstock.dev.java.net/servlets/BrowseList?listName=users&by=date&from=2008-10-01&to=2008-10-31&first=1&count=57


asking the same thing, with zero response.

I have made the possibly fatal mistake of committing a large project
to using Netbeans, Visual JSF, and Woodstock, and after considerable
work, when I hit a bug, have found that there is zero support
available anywhere.

That takes me to a meta-gripe, which I'm hoping someone can actually
throw some light on. The netbeans wiki
(http://wiki.netbeans.org/FaqChat) advises several chat forums. I've
been crying into those forums for several weeks, and have never
received any answer - if they are not in some wise an 'official'
channel, could the wiki be updated to reflect the *real* place to
direct questions like this?

I really, really want Netbeans to be successful, it is far and away
the best IDE for java development I've used, but if this continued
complete inability to find any meaningful support continues, I'm
going to have to re-evaluate and probably take my dev team back to a
commercial product.
Back to top
roberthook



Joined: 14 Oct 2008
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 3:55 am    Post subject: Status or future of Woodstock in Netbeans Reply with quote

Ryan de Laplante wrote:
Quote:
Robert Hook wrote:
Quote:
However I will have a hard time justifying that expense if I cannot
even find out if it's a known problem that is already being worked on.

Sure you can... :)

https://woodstock.dev.java.net/issues/query.cgi


Thank you Ryan, I should have clarified - if the project has ground to a
halt, that issues register may no longer reflect the state of the
project. However, as Mark's clarification has, well, clarified things,
that will be the route I pursue.
Back to top
roberthook



Joined: 14 Oct 2008
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 4:00 am    Post subject: Status or future of Woodstock in Netbeans Reply with quote

Thank you Mark, that certainly clarifies the situation, and also
clarifies where I will need to concentrate my efforts for the resolution
of my immediate technical issue. I remain concerned that existing bugs
and partially completed features in Woodstock 4.2 will not be easily
rolled into NetBeans in the future, however I am willing to begin work
on the Woodstock side of the fence to address this, if possible.

Mark Dey wrote:
Quote:
Dear Woodstock users,

On behalf of the teams involved, I apologize for the lack of
communication about about the future of Woodstock. The project teams
are struggling with the rather sudden reassignment of the contributing
members and are researching alternatives that can help fill the gap in
some way.

The NetBeans level of contribution to future releases of Woodstock has
been suspended. The current version of Woodstock shipping as part of
VisualWeb in NetBeans 6.5 is version 4.2 and will continue to be
supported as it has in prior releases.

Woodstock as a java.net open source project is still active to the
extent that community members are willing and able to contribute to
the further development and support of the technology.

There will undoubtedly be a transition period as we roll out the next
generation of tools for JSF and UI components for the web. A top
priority is minimizing the impact to those who are invested in the
current technology.

On behalf of the NetBeans team, thank you for your understanding and
your continued interest in NetBeans.

- Mark Dey

NetBeans VisualWeb Team
Back to top
Xavier Callejas
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 3:20 pm    Post subject: Status or future of Woodstock in Netbeans Reply with quote

address-removed wrote:

Quote:
I completed several (small 2 medium) projects using woodstock over the
last month. If woodstock is discontinued for whatever reason i consider
using something other than netbeans in the future.

Netbeans became a real cool IDE in the last 1 1/2  years - but without
adhering to the usual business rules its pretty useless and to dangerous
to work with ...

PS I still hope this is 'only' a transition problem (slow down ; borken
communication; ..) after the project leader of the
'Creator'  left SUN.

I think and hope as you do.

(I'm currently working a lot in Visual Web Projects and woodstock).
Back to top
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