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Will "Performance" (and stability) sometime appear in NetBeans roadmap?

 
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NukemBy



Joined: 01 Feb 2012
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 8:24 pm    Post subject: Will "Performance" (and stability) sometime appear in NetBeans roadmap? Reply with quote

I regularly check if there is something new planned in upcoming releases of NB here https://netbeans.org/community/releases/roadmap.html. Unfortunately that page does not seem to be updated regularly - for example now I see 8.2.1 is scheduled for mid-December (in two weeks), but there is no information about that release.

Anyway, point of this post is somewhat different - over and over again I strongly hope to see there (in roadmap) in bold at first line something like "We've made significant performance and stability improvements in A, B and C areas". Really. Currently performance is the major disappointment for me in NetBeans. Of course I'm talking about 'production size project', where I really need IDE, not just Notepad.

The last use-case which encourage me to write here is described in details in this issue https://netbeans.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=269229 - (40 minutes to wait for background scan to complete).

Before that, being very much disappointed by performance of Release 8.2, I did some self-profiling and see there many issues which cause NB to run 10-100 times slower than possible in correct implementation (of course not everywhere, but in some particularly annoying use-cases). Some of them live for years already. I've reported my findings in bugzilla and during last month got some feedback only for 10-15% of them. It seems that performance is still not the point of concern here Sad

Is the some possibility to raise "performance concerns" in upcoming releases?
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Martin Balin
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:39 pm    Post subject: Will "Performance" (and stability) sometime appear in NetBeans roadmap? Reply with quote

8.2.1 means NetBeans 8.2 Patch 1. It is planned to be delivered around
Dec 15th as modules on Update Center.
http://wiki.netbeans.org/NetBeansPatchesProcess

NetBeans 9 charter is to support JDK9 feature namely modules and JavaShell.
And in the meantime donation to Apache will happen.
Regards,
Martin

On 4.12.2016 21:24, NukemBy wrote:
Quote:
I regularly check if there is something new planned in upcoming releases of NB here https://netbeans.org/community/releases/roadmap.html. Unfortunately that page does not seem to be updated regularly - for example now I see 8.2.1 is scheduled for mid-December (in two weeks), but there is no information about that release.

Anyway, point of this post is somewhat different - over and over again I strongly hope to see there (in roadmap) in bold at first line something like "We've made significant performance and stability improvements in A, B and C areas". Really. Currently performance is the major disappointment for me in NetBeans. Of course I'm talking about 'production size project', where I really need IDE, not just Notepad.

The last use-case which encourage me to write here is described in details in this issue https://netbeans.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=269229 - (40 minutes to wait for background scan to complete).

Before that, being very much disappointed by performance of Release 8.2, I did some self-profiling and see there many issues which cause NB to run 10-100 times slower than possible in correct implementation (of course not everywhere, but in some particularly annoying use-cases). Some of them live for years already. I've reported my findings in bugzilla and during last month got some feedback only for 10-15% of them. It seems that performance is still not the point of concern here :(

Is the some possibility to raise "performance concerns" in upcoming releases?



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Peter Hansson
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 10:20 am    Post subject: Will "Performance" (and stability) sometime appear in NetBeans roadmap? Reply with quote

I have about 40 large projects open in NetBeans IDE at the same time. I do not have performance issues.


For me the trick has been to allocate sufficient memory to NetBeans IDE. I'm currently allowing it to take (up to) 4 GB of memory which is probably an overkill, but nevertheless. The disk where the projects reside is local and based on SSD.  I suspect that if your projects are on a network share then you are really shooting yourself in the foot.


Just some hints. Hope you can use them.





On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 9:38 PM, Martin Balin <address-removed ([email]address-removed[/email])> wrote:
Quote:
8.2.1 means NetBeans 8.2 Patch 1. It is planned to be delivered around Dec 15th as modules on Update Center.
http://wiki.netbeans.org/NetBeansPatchesProcess

NetBeans 9 charter is to support JDK9 feature namely modules and JavaShell.
And in the meantime donation to Apache will happen.
Regards,
Martin

On 4.12.2016 21:24, NukemBy wrote:
Quote:
I regularly check if there is something new planned in upcoming releases of NB here  https://netbeans.org/community/releases/roadmap.html. Unfortunately that page does not seem to be updated regularly - for example now I see 8.2.1 is scheduled for mid-December (in two weeks), but there is no information about that release.

Anyway, point of this post is somewhat different - over and over again I strongly hope to see there (in roadmap) in bold at first line something like "We've made significant performance  and stability improvements in A, B and C areas". Really. Currently performance is the major disappointment for me in NetBeans. Of course I'm talking about 'production size project', where I really need IDE, not just Notepad.

The last use-case which encourage me to write here is described in details in this issue https://netbeans.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=269229 - (40 minutes to wait for background scan to complete).

Before that, being very much disappointed by performance of Release 8.2, I did some self-profiling and see there many issues which cause NB to run 10-100 times slower than possible in correct implementation (of course not everywhere, but in some particularly annoying use-cases). Some of them live for years already. I've reported my findings in bugzilla and during last month got some feedback only for 10-15% of them.  It seems that performance is still not the point of concern here Sad

Is the some possibility to raise "performance concerns" in upcoming releases?





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tkellerer



Joined: 15 Aug 2008
Posts: 729
Location: Bavaria

PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 7:56 am    Post subject: Re: Will "Performance" (and stability) sometime appear in NetBeans roadmap? Reply with quote

Peter Hansson wrote:
I have about 40 large projects open in NetBeans IDE at the same time. I do not have performance issues.
Then you are lucky. I can get NetBeans to a screeching halt by e.g. trying to use the OfBiz sources with (it's essentially unusable when the Gradle plugin and really sluggish when manually setting up an Ant based project) - and that is just a single project.

Each time I have to change something to the project definition I can go for lunch and then take a nap afterwards until NetBeans has finished the dreaded "background scanning". It's not unusual for that to take over an hour. Same with an in-house mostly JavaScript project - I once had to kill the scanning after two hours (I did upload loads of traces for that). I do run with -J-Xmx4096m

It's getting harder and harder to use NetBeans in my environment. Most of the team members have switched over to InteliJ and none of them has remotely the (performance) problems I have.
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NukemBy



Joined: 01 Feb 2012
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:29 am    Post subject: Re: Will "Performance" (and stability) sometime appear in NetBeans roadmap? Reply with quote

Martin, thanks for you comment - I've really learned something new, especially regarding moving to Apache

Martin Balin wrote:
8.2.1 means NetBeans 8.2 Patch 1. ... http://wiki.netbeans.org/NetBeansPatchesProcess

To sum up, as far as I understand, there are no special 'roadmap' notes for patch releases. That's OK since i've got that link. It would be nice to also have it visible somewhere at https://netbeans.org/community/releases/roadmap.html, to void misunderstandings.

Martin Balin wrote:
NetBeans 9 charter is to support JDK9 feature namely modules and JavaShell.

I have got same filling when looking in HG repo, but did not see in 'official' sources ...

Martin Balin wrote:
And in the meantime donation to Apache will happen.

Just curious - if Oracle is tired of sponsorship over NetBeans? Not sure if moving to Apache will be better for NetBeans. (For sure this will slow-down actual development for some period)

I've looked through discussion at apache and not sure how NetBeans without nb-javac will work because it, as far as I understand, is used for supporting of intellisense in Java Editor.

Quote:

https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/2fe2a31ad9ab690184811a7567c0bedf9ffdab39b5219c04584a440a@%3Cdev.netbeans.apache.org%3E
We -- i.e., both on Oracle and Apache sides -- want to be very clear about what exactly, of the large repo and various bits and pieces -- we're donating. There are clearly parts we do not want to donate, etc, e.g., the Java compiler fork, for example.
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NukemBy



Joined: 01 Feb 2012
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:50 am    Post subject: Re: Will "Performance" (and stability) sometime appear in NetBeans roadmap? Reply with quote

Peter Hansson wrote:
I have about 40 large projects open in NetBeans IDE at the same time. I do not have performance issues.
For me the trick has been to allocate sufficient memory to NetBeans IDE. I'm currently allowing it to take (up to) 4 GB of memory which is probably an overkill, but nevertheless. The disk where the projects reside is local and based on SSD.  I suspect that if your projects are on a network share then you are really shooting yourself in the foot.

I'm using Intel i7 with everything on SSD drive (not a surprise nowadays Smile), so I think your trick is already in use by mostly everyone. Last project I've tried to open fits into 500MB of memory out of allocated 1GB (this is taken from NB self-profiler metrics). So ... performance issue goes from NetBeans itself (plus Windows - it provides rather low performance for reading of file attributes and listing files/folders - it looks like Windows file cache is not so 'cachy' Sad, but actual reason IMHO is design decisions within NetBeans)

I tried to fix some issues for myself in my local codebase of NB - quick and dirty fixes do work, though are not rather reliable for all users and need extensive testing. I've shared some ideas in Bugzilla.

But major thing I have to say - NetBeans requires significant refactoring in same places. This definitely will take some significant effort and there is dilemma as usual - what the priory is - "quality/performance/stability" or "new functionality" (Java9 is scheduled for release in 3-4 month ... need to catch up ...). I feel NetBean's team is too small for the size of the project and having no commercial support can't grow as much as really needed, thats why to keep up with new functionality, performance always gets only 'idle ticks', which are close to zero ....
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geertjan



Joined: 22 Jan 2014
Posts: 979

PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 6:22 pm    Post subject: Will "Performance" (and stability) sometime appear in NetBeans roadmap? Reply with quote

Motivations re NetBeans at Apache are clearly described:
https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/NetBeansProposal

Gj

On 9-12-2016 11:29, NukemBy wrote:
Quote:
Martin, thanks for you comment - I've really learned something new, especially regarding moving to Apache


Martin Balin wrote:
Quote:
8.2.1 means NetBeans 8.2 Patch 1. ... http://wiki.netbeans.org/NetBeansPatchesProcess
To sum up, as far as I understand, there are no special 'roadmap' notes for patch releases. That's OK since i've got that link. It would be nice to also have it visible somewhere at https://netbeans.org/community/releases/roadmap.html, to void misunderstandings.


Martin Balin wrote:
Quote:
NetBeans 9 charter is to support JDK9 feature namely modules and JavaShell.
I have got same filling when looking in HG repo, but did not see in 'official' sources ...


Martin Balin wrote:
Quote:
And in the meantime donation to Apache will happen.
Just curious - if Oracle is tired of sponsorship over NetBeans? Not sure if moving to Apache will be better for NetBeans. (For sure this will slow-down actual development for some period)

I've looked through discussion at apache and not sure how NetBeans without nb-javac will work because it, as far as I understand, is used for supporting of intellisense in Java Editor.


Quote:
https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/2fe2a31ad9ab690184811a7567c0bedf9ffdab39b5219c04584a440a@%3Cdev.netbeans.apache.org%3E
We -- i.e., both on Oracle and Apache sides -- want to be very clear about what exactly, of the large repo and various bits and pieces -- we're donating. There are clearly parts we do not want to donate, etc, e.g., the Java compiler fork, for example.



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NukemBy



Joined: 01 Feb 2012
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 7:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Will "Performance" (and stability) sometime appear in NetBeans roadmap? Reply with quote

geertjan wrote:
Motivations re NetBeans at Apache are clearly described:
https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/NetBeansProposal

Gj

I've already seen this link - motivation there is very generic. Frankly speaking I'm not enough familiar about how ASF works and specifically have no idea who is funding and managing projects there.

The link says (slighly re-worded for brevity) - "... individual contributors from other organizations, as well as self-employed individual contributors ... are expected to contribute to NetBeans" ...

Probably I'm too pessimistic, but why will they do this? NetBeans is rather complex and just to start doing something minor, but correctly implemented, it will take weeks/months from rather highly skilled developers to get acquainted with the code. Such people typically work for money, unless they just love NetBeans very much Smile - therefore I'm somewhat pessimistic regarding huge inflow of fresh blood ...

Another thing - how is it different from current process? Anyway to contribute to "something under ASF" you need to become a contributor there -> this means contributor license agreement and other 'complication' staff - i see no much difference from contributing to open source Oracle software. Situation may get significantly different if just hosted on github under something like MIT license - that way anyone having github account can fork project, do some enhancements and send merge-request back to owner, with minimal paper work and much more efficiency thus decreasing entry effort. As far as i know this way does not work in ASF (as well as in Oracle).
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geertjan



Joined: 22 Jan 2014
Posts: 979

PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:11 pm    Post subject: Will "Performance" (and stability) sometime appear in NetBeans roadmap? Reply with quote

On 9-12-2016 20:55, NukemBy wrote:
Quote:
geertjan wrote:
Quote:
Motivations re NetBeans at Apache are clearly described:
https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/NetBeansProposal

Gj
I've already seen this link - motivation there is very generic. Frankly speaking I'm not enough familiar about how ASF works and specifically have no idea who is funding and managing projects there.

The link says (slighly re-worded for brevity) - "... individual contributors from other organizations, as well as self-employed individual contributors ... are expected to contribute to NetBeans" ...

Probably I'm too pessimistic, but why will they do this?

The application framework is the basis of a range of mission critical
scientific software at large organizations in defense, aerospace,
logistics, and research, such as at Boeing, Airbus Defense and Space,
NASA, and NATO.

Gj

Quote:
NetBeans is rather complex and just to start doing something minor, but correctly implemented, it will take weeks/months from rather highly skilled developers to get acquainted with the code. Such people typically work for money, unless they just love NetBeans very much Smile - therefore I'm somewhat pessimistic regarding huge inflow of fresh blood ...

Another thing - how is it different from current process? Anyway to contribute to "something under ASF" you need to become a contributor there -> this means contributor license agreement and other 'complication' staff - i see no much difference from contributing to open source Oracle software. Situation may get significantly different if just hosted on github under something like MIT license - that way anyone having github account can fork project, do some enhancements and send merge-request back to owner, with minimal paper work and much more efficiency thus decreasing entry effort. As far as i know this way does not work in ASF (as well as in Oracle).



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NukemBy



Joined: 01 Feb 2012
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, it seems that there is vast category of people tied to NetBeans in the solutions customized to specific purposes. I'm from category of regular programmers and just like NetBeans more than other rivals (IDEA, Eclipse) Smile

Ok, thanks for comment, will see what happens with this initiative, hopefully things will change for best.
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Wade Chandler
Posted via mailing list.





PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:59 pm    Post subject: Will "Performance" (and stability) sometime appear in NetBeans roadmap? Reply with quote

Do note, I am and never have been an Oracle nor Sun employee. Apache, like most OSS, is a meritocracy, so if you do, you have more say. Less do and more say equals less. The NB project has been this way for a long time too. I have contributed to various areas over the years.

The contributor agreements are easy formalities which protect the code and those who use it and contribute to it, and many who help out often would not were there no legal protections, and that is just smart for someone building software in our world of idiocy, software patents, law suits, and those eager to award with no understanding of the topics at hand.

I agree pieces related to performance need to be looked at, and am planning to make a push on some of that stuff after Apache as I am hoping for a faster release cycle, and more of a flowing release process about like Google Chrome, to get better return on my personal invested time, so we will see, but I too use many Gradle projects daily without a lot of issue, but am using a Mac.


If you know specific things that could be fixed as you have suggested, a good approach would be to create wiki page and outline them, and there reference Jira issues. Myself and others can then help you with that as a project, and we can recruit others as well.It would help you and others. That will certainly make it a priority. This was going to be one of my first steps, but if you can help get that going, then great, and will help a lot.


Maybe using this as a template:


http://wiki.netbeans.org/MakeGroovyInNetBeansGreatAgain



Wade



On Dec 11, 2016 5:09 PM, "NukemBy" <address-removed ([email]address-removed[/email])> wrote:
Quote:

geertjan wrote:
Quote:
Motivations re NetBeans at Apache are clearly described:
https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/NetBeansProposal

Gj

I've already seen this link - motivation there is very generic. Frankly speaking I'm not enough familiar about how ASF works and specifically have no idea who is funding and managing projects there.

The link says (slighly re-worded for brevity) - "... individual contributors from other organizations, as well as self-employed individual contributors ...  are expected to contribute to NetBeans" ...

Probably I'm too pessimistic, but why will they do this? NetBeans is rather complex and just to start doing something minor, but correctly implemented, it will take weeks/months from rather highly skilled developers to get acquainted with the code. Such people typically work for money, unless they just love NetBeans very much Smile - therefore I'm somewhat pessimistic regarding huge inflow of fresh blood ...

Another thing - how is it different from current process? Anyway to contribute to "something under ASF" you need to become a contributor there -> this means contributor license agreement and other 'complication' staff - i see no much difference from contributing to open source Oracle software. Situation may get significantly different if just hosted on github under something like MIT license - that way anyone having github account can fork project, do some enhancements and send merge-request back to owner, with minimal paper work and much more efficiency thus decreasing entry effort. As far as i know this way does not work in ASF (as well as in Oracle).




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NukemBy



Joined: 01 Feb 2012
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunately I'm not free enough to constantly allocate some time on improvements of NetBeans - this means I will not have time on maintaining a Wiki page, especially on a regular basis.

I've spent two+ weeks of my 'spare' time on profiling of NB after 8.2 was released - because was very disappointed about it performance.
My findings are already posted in bugzilla, mostly alone with my IMHO regarding reasons and potential fixes (sometime not correct).

If someone would like to maintain some wiki, below are some inputs from me to start.

- - - - -

I would classify slowness (annoying me the most) into following categories.

> “Slowness of Background scan” - nevertheless it is 'background' and is supposed to not affect user experience, it actually does in two following areas
=========================================

    * both BG scan and interactive editors excessively use same cache store and heavy load on cache from bg scan causes editors to be extremely laggy
    * some user actions become enabled only after bg scan is complete


I feel time of bg scan can be reduced by 80-90% on Windows and 40-50% on *nix (in context of projects having Java-or-like code plus various JS scripts – in my particular context – huge multi-module WEB application). This ‘extra’ time mostly goes from:
- Excessive queries to File System (30-40% on Windows, 5% on *nix) …
- … caused by rather inefficient java package cache (20-30% on all platforms)
- Inefficient file-processing algorithms in some particular cases which may not be the case for everyone (10-20% on all platforms)

It may happen that fixing implementation of ‘java package cache’ will also fix performance of ‘File System’ because number of file queries will change scale from ‘millions’ to ‘thousands’ and consequently also significantly reduce severity of some other code issues.

Issues for this part:

>> Regarding “File System on windows”
-------------------------------------------------
Implement another way of caching of File instances in NetBeans
https://netbeans.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=268744

FileUtil.toFileObject() - why just not call directly FileBasedFileSystem.getFileObject() ?
https://netbeans.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=268123

Excessive calls to File.isDirectory() cause performance problems
https://netbeans.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=268087

Performance issue in RepositoryForBinaryQueryImpl.getJarMetadataCoordinatesIntern()
https://netbeans.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=268045

Performance issue: FileUtil.normalizedRef cache is cleaned too frequently
https://netbeans.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=268027

Performance issue in BaseFileObj.getPath --> FileName.getName
https://netbeans.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=268026

"assert assertNormalized()" in FileUtil.toFile() is the cause of general slowness of NetBeans
https://netbeans.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=267990

>> Regarding “java package cache”
-------------------------------------------------

Background scan of not so large project runs for 40 minutes !!!
https://netbeans.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=269229

Performance issue - URL LuceneIndexFactory.getIndexFolder() takes 10% of RepositoryUpdater.worker
https://netbeans.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=268108

'Heavy' CPU-intensive implementation of CachingArchiveProvider.toURI()
https://netbeans.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=268292

Slow and Weird auto-suggest for Exception class names in New Breakpoint dialog
https://netbeans.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=250470


>> Regarding “Inefficient file-processing algorithms”
-------------------------------------------------

Fix performance in 'javascript2' code (JavaScript scanner)
https://netbeans.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=268745

Replace EnumSet.of() with EnumSet.noneOf().add() in UsagesData.java (Java scanner)
https://netbeans.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=268746

Excessive InapplicableMethodException causes slowness in bg-scan during initial load.
https://netbeans.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=268310

Html Editor hangs for 3-4 minutes on 'incorrect' HTML (Netbeans completely freezes)
https://netbeans.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=268087



> “Slowness of Java debugger” (because of these issues I switched to IDEA currently for all Java staff)
=========================================

Slow evaluation of Watch variables during debug (Java Debugger)
https://netbeans.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=249305

NB hangs while debugging (Java Debugger)
https://netbeans.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=268748

"Debugging view" hardly flickers while evaluation of watch variables (Java Debugger)
https://netbeans.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=269018

Breakpoints cause unneeded lengthy loading of projects (Java Debugger)
https://netbeans.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=269121


> “Various other staff, which is noticed across the code
=========================================

Excessive IO coming from TrieDictionary (causes 7-10 secs delay in initial project load) - occurs once on clean-cache start
https://netbeans.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=268094

Performance issue - ancient synchronized implementations of listener subscriptions
https://netbeans.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=268047

Performance issue in (jpda) MainProjectManager.getMainProject() -> isDependent(lastSelectedProject, current)
https://netbeans.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=268028

SimpleFileOwnerQueryImplementation.getOwner() is another cause of major NetBeans slownes
https://netbeans.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=268024
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